Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is there any thing I should know before I go? Molly has worms. I've heard somebody say that there was something that I should make sure the vet doesn't use on her to treat them but I can't remember what.

... some POOPY!

bring as fresh a poop as you can with you to the vet. if there's a time of day when your tort goes (for example, mines goes every morning right after he's soaked), get it and put it in a ziplock bag or something, and stick it in the fridge 'til it's time to go. that way the doc can check it out firsthand.

also, if you're anything like me and had several little questions to ask, it never hurts to make a list!

np
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

What else is toxic that a vet may want to give?

be wary of vit A shots. If the vet is interested in them ask about the possibility of oral vitimin a supplements or vit a through the diet.

and there seems to be some idea floating around that piperazine is toxic to turtles too but nobody seesm to have literature for it.

not this is a good thread for great info, got any more?

You really should take your tortoise to a reptile veterinarian, then you will not need to worry about them giving a medication that is inappropriate for tortoises. Go to www.arav.org to find a reptile vet near you. I'll put a link below.

Stacey Rader, RVT
Assoc. of Amphibian and Reptile Veterinarians

Sad to say, I have heard of "herp" vets giving ivermectin to torts or turtles. It's always a good idea to make sure your vet has some experience with chelonians, whether or not they consider themselves a herp vet.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I agree, but the membership at ARAV will give you a good indication that the veterinarian remains current with the advances in herp care. I always rec. that herp (and all other exotic pet) owners interview their vet and ask for client references (of clients with similar species) before making an appointment.

In regards to Sarah's tortoise, no veterinarian should give ivermectin for worms because it is a drug to kill mites and other arthropod parasites. The deworming medications most effective in chelonians are fenbendazole (goes under the trade name Panacur) and metronidazole (tradename Flagyl for humans). These are usually given together via gavage tube in two doses given 10-14 days apart.
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Stacey

Ivermectin is used for worms. Doesn't work on tapes or liver flukes but it gets everything else. It's the what is used in the very popular heartworm preventative - Heartguard.

-Nikki

AsI said in the post lower down I was speaking generally for reptilian nematodes, ivermectin is not used to treat worms it is used to kill arthropod ectoparasites. It is a very popular dewormer in cattle and large animal medicine, but it is not a dewormer in other species (heartworm notwithstanding).
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Stacey

Is it common for reptile vets to use ivermec for arthropods? topically I assume? I would imagine that would have adverse effects as well? Is that a common thing you see at your clinic?

ivermec is used as a wormer in sm animal med, there are just better things. heartguard is advertised as a preventative wormer as well (not for tapes.) I wasn't implying it should be used in reptiles, just that an uneducated vet might think that. It is irresponsible not to check drug reactions with any species. For example there are a lot of things you can use on dogs that will kill cats.

Nikki

Yes, topically. We use ivermectin for ear mites in cats and rabbits (topically in the ear mixed with propylene glycol as a carrying agent) and sometimes as injection. We don't use it as a dewormer because there are many better options. It is also used in birds and G. pigs for lice cage mites, cheyletiella mites (also known as walking dandruff). It is very effective against a large number of arthropd ectoparasites. I do not have my Plumb with me , what nematodes or other worms do you use ivermectin for in small animals. The agent in Heartgard Plus that kills intestinal parasites is pyrantel (tradename Nemex).
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Stacey

Ivermectin enhances the release of GABA. Liver flukes and tapes are the two it mentioned that don't use GABA. There is a whole list of things it is approved for but I think there is alot of extra-label use.

Do you have much of a problem with mites. Aren't the majority normal and non-harmful on exotics. Are you treating for the clients benefit?

thanks,
Nikki

In the case of lizards and snakes mites can be very nasty and harmful to the animal.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I too have been a registered tech in exotic medicine for about 12 years where do you work sonodog? I'm in Mountain View, CA.
I am glad you mentioned the SQ vitamin injections, I've had many an argument with techs and doctors alike who want to treat our exotics with traditional pet medicine. There is still alot of debate about the renal portal system's role in drug clearance and drug toxicity on the kidneys, but the accepted rule of thumb is to use the forelimbs. Mader still advocates use of the forelimbs and I pretty much go with whatever he says, even though he did the study that proved it may not be as big an issue as we originally thought .

With respect to mites, many do not transmit disease (but some do) if that is what you mean, but they can create a blood loss burden depending on the species of mite, the parasite load, and the age, body condition and species of the exotic pet. They also make the pet pruritic (itchy)which is reason enough to treat in my book. Reptiles are a different case and the mites can severely debilitate an animal over time. We don't see alot of mites, but we certainly see them in WC herps and we see ear mites (cats and rabbits mostly), cheyletiella (rabbits), and scaley feet mites (sorry I'm at work and can't look up the species)in caged birds. These are all cases, in my opinion, where the mites should be treated.
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Stacey

I was a vet tech in the Los Angeles area. Mostly the San Fernando valley. I am now an ultrasound tech (for humans)at a big hosp. in Sacramento. I got tired of shaving maggot ridden chows for 13 bucks an hour.
I have met Dr. doug Mader a few times. I am pretty sure he would not remember me anymore(I have that effect on people). I was pretty pissed when he moved to florida. Vets like him are few and far between. I have tortoises that are worth more than some new cars sell for, and there is not a vet around I could find that could do more for them than I could if an emergency came up.
I know this will piss off some people, but I think we should be happy to pay vets the high prices they charge on our exotics. This will encourage more vets to specialize in this field and advance exotic medicine. Veterinary medicine is very advanced for cats, dogs, horses, livestock etc. Why? because there is money in it for them.
In the early part of the last century, vet medicine was very ignorant to the needs of dogs and cats. all the knowledge was extrapolated from what these country vets knew about horses and cows. as people urbanised and moved into cities, they started keeping more cats and dogs and a demand for this medicine arose. The same needs to happen for our reptiles and we wont have to worry about somebody shooting up one of our baby radiateds with a syringeful of ivermectin, vitamins, and some 409 for good measure.

" The same needs to happen for our reptiles and we wont have to worry about somebody shooting up one of our baby radiateds with a syringeful of ivermectin, vitamins, and some 409 for good measure."

LOL! I agree 100%. Again this will probably piss even more people off, but I hate it when people try to be their own vets and them come a runnin' when they F#@% up. Now we are expected to fix their mistakes and listen to them complain about the bill. My personal favorite is, "$150.00??? But my iguanna only cost me $20.00!".

And yes, Mader's loss from California was a big one. I know alot of tortoise people down there who were very upset. He doesn't do as much practice as before because of his crazy speaking schedule His hospital Marathon Vet. Hosp. (I think) has a cool website. you should check it out.) I have met him several times at conferences and labs that he put on, but he certainly wouldn't remember me either! I too had to leave the profession for the most part. I teach high school biology during the week and tech on the weekends, summers and hoildays. How's life working with the "higher" species? (ha ha)
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Stacey

Rader-- your point is very valid about someone complaining about a 120 dollar vet bill when they only paid twenty bucks for their iggy. It's intersting how even reptile people will take a kitty home they got out of a box in front of a walmart for free and have no problem spending thousands of dollars on it when it gets cancer only to have it die anyways but they would rather put their blood python in the freezer rather than pay for a treatment cource of baytril to get it through an upper respitory.
As far as hows life working with the higher species? well, the $ is a lot better but I debate the term "higher species" LOL

I found out about ivermectin and it's toxic effects on tortoises purely by accident and it was a good thing I did. I have raised birds for many years and always had ivermectin around for my Lady Gould finches which are very suseptable to air sac mites.

When I first got some tortoises that were newly imported and that I could tell were sickly, I figured I would treat them with the ivermectin. As it turned out, I kept putting if off and putting it off for some reason. A few weeks after I got them, I went to the reptile show in Pomona and ended up talking to a guy who breeds tortoises. I told him I wanted to treat the torts myself because I was experienced with birds, and he said it was not too difficult to do, but to be sure I didn't use ivermectin in case that was what I was planning on. It was a good thing I held off treating them.

Ivermectin is considered fairly non-toxic in birds as parasite treaments go, so I was surprised to find out it was bad for tortoises.

Ivermectin can be toxic to tortoises as any other drug in high enough dosages. As with most drugs that have been used on Reptiles the dosages are usually derived first from mamalian aplications and then trial and error. In the case of Ivermectin, which is a very broad spectrum antiparasitic (including most nematods and such in addition to some arthropods) very low dosages seem to be required in the case of some chelonians. If the dosages are exceeded for an individual there does not seem to be much room for error. For this reason it is not recomended in Chelonians. There are vets who realize this and have used it successfully in Chelonians but, once again, it is easier to say just don't do it.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Very true. There are some cases where an experienced herp vet would use ivermectin. I was speaking in general terms and generally there are safer and more effective antihelmenthics available for the more common nematodes we see.
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Stacey