Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If you go to the following website, you can see our new rhino iguana exhibit:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=268663,268663 (it was originally posted on the burm forum under "Rob's new digs"

Here's the details:

Manufacturer: Habitat Systems (we highly recommend them)
Size/Dimensions: 12' x 4' x 4' (we have a young trio)
Specs: two side glass, natural "faux" rock work including palm trees, sandy/soil/gravel substrate, mist system
Heated by: Pro Product Radiant Heat panel at night and Power Sun bulbs by day, 5.0 48" bulbs for additional UV rays

In the short amount of time these lizards have moved into this enclosure, we have seen an extraordinary amount of interaction and behaviors....they are the hit of our wildlife center. They are currently feeding on: mice, quail, turkey, commercial iguana food (very small amounts), fresh chopped leafy greens and veggies, a little fruit/berries, Mazuri insectivore and omnivore diet, superworms, roaches, and even the occasional oddity such as freshwater shrimp, fish chunks, etc. Regular vitamin supplementation of Minerall Indoor and RepCal/Herptivite are included.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)
Link

Hi, that is a lovely exhibit I must say. Very nice indeed. I have to say something about that diet. WOW that is a lot of animal protein. You dont mention amounts but it sounds like the meat is overtaking the veggies. A lot of people are feeding these guys a nearly vegan diet these days. Can you elaborate on the amounts of animal protein vs. veggies that you are feeding?

Carole

After re-reading my post I can see the concern; but, our rhinos are on a primarily herbivorous diet with a smaller percentage amount of animal protein mixed in. Our philosophy has always been offering a varied and quality diet and these rhinos are young animals so as they mature, their percentages in terms of plant material will certainly go up. Each of our animals get complete blood work ups on an annual basis which helps us to determine if we need to make any adjustments in their diets.

nice enclosure, easy viewing but... It may get small for three a ways down the road. Those guys are pretty small do you know the sexes of all three. I would aggree with the other post. where did you get that diet. it reads like you are feeding a tegu. I wish it listed more veggies and less or no animal protein.
watch for biting of toes

N/P = no post.

mine is missing his right "pinky" and the tip of his tail. welcome back, I hope all is well

Maybe D.B. housed him with some nubila -- Who knows ? Thanks for the welcome back.

I have to agree on both points made already. It's going to be small for 3 adults...actually small for (3) 3 year olds, IMO. It's pretty widely accepted that Cyclura don't require all of that animal protein and, in the long run, it can be as detrimental to them as it is to the GGI's. Instead of animal protein I've added a small amount of grains to my Cyclura diet, including rice, pasta and some whole wheat bread.
I'd like to see some close up photos of the animals. Also, from whom did you acquire them?
Hope to see you at Reptile Fest in the spring.

Is the new area up and running and open to the public? Ill be contacting you this week regarding another topic, but hopefully that topic will bring to see the new center.
-----
Cindy
PHFaust

Email Cindy

Land of the Outcasts!

Before the Cylura God's strike me down, I just thought I would clarify our diet. Our rhinos get more plant matter than protein, however, after researching the available data that we have in terms of field observations, blood level samplings, etc. we are taking a middle of the road approach....that is, we are offering both plant and animal items to our young rhino's diet (and as far as percentages go, our young rhinos are getting approximately 75% plant matter and 25% animal protein). They have done extremely well and are the pictures of perfect health (and their blood tests back this up). Sorry if it sounded like a heavily carnivorous or "tegu" like diet. Our intent is to move their diets to a primarily herbivorous diet with far less animal protein. Once again, if someone can provide some solid evidence of natural diet selection of this subspecies, I would be most interested in seeing it.

As far as cage size, I think this size of enclosure will be adequate for 3-4 years max and we are fully expecting having to go to a larger exhibit at some point. We are already planning their permanent exhibit. Our trio is one male and two females and we have never had a problem with toe biting, aggression, or any behavior that would lead us to have any concerns (other than lots of head bobbing, running around, etc.).

Hope this answers everyone's questions/concerns.

okay, cool. We can only go by what we read. Sometimes thats good, sometimes bad. We only had the best intentions speaking from our own experiences.

Recently had a rhino go ill for a variety of reasons, but the big one was gout from too many super worms. We're talking about a dozen thrown over a salad.

Once had a 2.1 trio together from hatchlings to 3 years. The female was usually the boss up until about 2-1/2. By maturity, age 3, all had shortened tails due to hierarchial rivalries. The digits were fine, it's the tip of the tails that were bitten off. This was an outdoor environment, indoor animals sometimes coexist much better.

Would like to know what your comparing your blood work to ? There were some wild collections made recently, but I did not think they were available yet ? The previous zoo based info is heavily skewed toward what they use to think was a good diet.
A previous post by a zoo employee who has been very successful recommends 95% greens and 5% marion leaf eater commercial diet.

Good luck

Did you mean Mazuri Leaf Eater diet? If so, that is something we have already ordered and will be incorporating into our cyclura's diet....glad to hear that others are also using it. Obviously, there is much we need to work on in terms of "prescribed" diets of this species. The bloodwork is simply a tool to use to see if there are any abnormal "spikes" in what our team of reptile vets would see as "normal" but you are right, it is sometimes a crapshoot to determine true health when we don't have enough data available to compare it to. I guess only time will tell if we are doing things right.

Hopefully, this trio will coexist peacefully and I am somewhat confident that they will since they have been raised together since hatclings. Although I have always been a snake aficianado, I have to admit that my favoriet herps to just watch are by far and away our Cyclura (and an old black roughneck monitor that is in constant foraging mode).

Marion Labs leafeater diet. I think they make several different formulas. Here's a link to a corresponding post.

I'm extremely interested in hearing more about your Black Roughneck. I recently acquired 2 of these awesome looking critters. Can you contact me and tell me about your setup, husbandry and diet?
Marion information thread

Thank you very much for the lead....I must have been wrong on my end and will certainly follow up.

In terms of our black roughneck, he is truly one of those "one of a kind" animals (probably not at all indicative of his species). He is approximately 4' long and currently resides in a 8' wide x 3' deep x 6' high Habitat Systems cage complete with natural rockworks, mist system, high basking ledge as a night retreat which is heated by a pro product radiant heat panel, a power sun bulb providing uv/heat/light that reaches approximately 120 deg F directly under buls (ambient temps range from the upper 70's to upper 80's, humidity is at 80% or even slightly higher at times), lots of plastic plants to serve as cover and security, a large water basin that is used regularly and a natural substrate consisting of: forest humus, soil/sand mix, peat, mulch, and ESU lizard litter. This animal is actually a part of our "show" in that we have trained him to come out of his cage on command and follow me or my staff down an exhibit hallway for up to 200' feet and follow us back to the cage at which time he jumps right in and is rewarded with a rodent; quite a show. Hope this is helpful. Rob

Are there hiding places ? Are there 3 separate basking spots within significant uv absorbing range from the lights ? Diet - check reply to clarifications.

Overall nice, Spacious, alot of air, and it looks like some ventilation up near the top. Sliding glass doors for easy access, Natural substrates, misting system, plus suitable uv lights. That's an attractive set up.

Yes, we took all of those things into consideration. There are three completely separate basking areas that reach nearly the same optimal basking temps (although we tend to find that they all bask under the same lamp...but on other days, they like to have their own space). Under each halogen lamp (we are currently using zoo meds Power Sun bulbs as we have had great success using this product with our monitors) we also have a zoomed 5.0 fluorescent...but, I truly feel that the best way to achieve proper vit. D3 levels is via supplements (of course, if we weren't in Chicago, our lizards could live outdoors). At night, when the lamps shut off, a large Pro Product Radiant Heat Panel turn on so that the lizards can sleep in areas of warm temps and for the most part, this is where we find them (some will sleep in the crevices in this same area). In terms of hiding areas, there are two large crevices under one of the basking ledges where they love to hang out (still warm but when they really need to cook up they just climb up to the top). Additionally, there is a large basking rock (fake) in the middle of the cage (that is in the pic) that also serves as a retreat and our rhinos love digging underneath it and hide there for short durations. For the most part, though, they spend most of their time out in the open. We have ample ventilation built in and even have a small exhaust fan to push stale air out (probably not necessary but something we decided to add). Our substrate is a nice combination of various sands, pea gravel, peat, top soil and ESU's jungle litter....looks real nice, can be sprayed heavily if needed, allows for natural digging behaviors, and easy to clean. Is it the perfect setup?....no, but overall, we are real happy with the results and the way these lizards have adjusted to their new home. The people who come to visit absolutely love watching this display because of the iguana's many behaviors exhibited right in front of them.

Sounds like a great set up ! It all sounds good, except the part about d-3 supplements. Good for some herps, but based on some of the newer info for green igs, it can result in MBD. The set up would sound alot more attractive with UV mercury vapor instead of halogen bolbs.

Having kept several iguanas (including a rhino) and many other herps on a long term basis (20 years on many of the animals under my care and my staff at the wildlife center I direct; plus many other herps at my house) I will only speak on behalf of many years of experience and countless hours scouring the literature and available research in particular to herp husbandry. Yes, too much D3 can be very detrimental to a herp's health, however, I truly feel that if used properly, it is a critical component to a herp's long term health and there's no doubt that the success we have had is directly attibutable to a sound diet/supplementation program. Proper diet/supplementation, particularly for herps that are kept primarily indoors (like our's) is more important than the type of heat sources used because to be honest, even the best UV producing bulbs pale in comparison to natural sunlight. Having researched many products available on the market, we felt that Zoo Med's Power Sun bulb was an excellent choice as a basking/uv light. Additionally, as previously mentioned, we also incorporate several banks of 5.0 fluorescent bulbs. I wouldn't be surprised if we could get the same positive results using a regular spot lamp purchased from a hardware store (and based on the success that some monitor breeders have had using only these type of heat sources, mayabe I am just wasting a lot of money). Not trying to get defensive, and I appreciate your really nice comments, but you are getting a bit nit picky in my opinion. My original intent was merely to show off the exhibit and I haven't see too many (private or public) that have put as much thought into the design as we have). Ideally, our rhinos would be kept in outdoor enclosures year round with acres of land to enjoy but that isn't feasible. So, we feel we have come up with the best possible environment for these lizards; I guess time will tell how we did.

Sorry, did not mean to put you on the defensive. I got a little confused as to if you were using a halogen or a mercury vapor bulb. The zoomed powersun is a good uv mercury vapor bulb. Zoomed also makes some halogen bulbs that are poor for uv, but good for basking.

Do you have a copy of Jacobsen's book : Biology, husbandry and Medicine of Green Iguanas (Krieger Publishing)? It has interesting info on studies done with uvb supplements.

Thanks for sharing your pictures and let us know how things turn out. I plan to do some nutrition/bloodwork comparisons on my Cornuta as well, and will put something up down the road.

Good luck

No need to apologize....I messed up in not giving accurate information (and thanks for clarifying)....I shouldn't have gotten defensive. No, I don't have that book but I will be getting; thank you for the lead. And, I believe you told me about the Marion diets. I just ordered a case that we will abe using to supplement our rhino's diet.