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Babies, babies, babies..

RaderRVT Dec 10, 2003 05:59 PM

Holy Cow! The Indo BTS I just adopted just gave birth to five babies. What do I do? I separated mom from the babies. Can all of the babies stay together? I sure hope so. I am a little concerned about getting four more setups. I understand it will take a couple of days for them to eat should I offer food anyway? When do I start offering greens? I have so many questions because I am not a breeder just a pet owner. These are my first babies. Thank you in advance for any help you can offer.

p.s. Mike (smoke) they look exactly like yours, crazy coincidence we both had suprise babies!
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Stacey

Replies (18)

Edward Dec 11, 2003 02:39 AM

n/p
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Edward
Carpe diem

RaderRVT Dec 11, 2003 05:52 PM

np
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Stacey

James Wilson Dec 12, 2003 10:15 AM

The market is flooded with babies at this time of year due to the mass amounts of wild collected gravid female indonesian Blue-tongues that are imported. This is the birthing season for them in in the southern hemisphere. It is kind of sad to me, mainly because the big importers place large orders for Indonesian BTS in early fall so as to get as many gravid females as possible. What is even sadder is that it is my understanding that T. gigas is protected under Indonesian law, which is why these skinks are usually exported here to the US as T. scincoides. As for their care, they will eat as soon as they are born. I would not be too worried about greens at this time. I slowly start to include them into their diet so that they are getting a nice 50/50 ratio of animal to plant matter by the time they are about 1 year old. Feeding them plant matter is really of no concern at this early stage in the game. I would wait a few weeks, and then just add a very small amount to their diet. However, proper calcium supplementation will be very important. I would use a phosphorous free (no phosphorous) calcium supplement at least every other feeding.

Neonatal Care
Babies should be separated from the mother as soon as they are discovered. They can be housed together in a 20-30 (depending on the number of babies) gallon tank. They will get along fine for a few weeks, although they should be monitored closely especially during feeding time, as fights do break out. In 2-6 weeks it is a good idea to start separating the babies into their own enclosures. Skinks that are not separated will fight, causing broken legs, lost tails, and serious head wounds. These fights will often happen out of the blue and without warning, in a group of baby skinks that almost seemed to enjoy each other's company just the day before. If you choose to ignore this advice, you should brush up on your reptilian first aid skills. Ten-gallon fish tanks with 1/4-inch pegboard tops make great rearing tanks for baby blue-tongues. Baby skinks should be kept warm with basking temperatures of 90-95 degrees and ambient temperatures of 85-90 degrees. There should be little or no drop in temperature at night. I recommend that babies be kept on either newspaper or artificial turf so as to prevent them from accidentally ingesting any substrate, which could cause an impaction or even death. Baby blue-tongues should be fed every day, or at least every other day, a diet similar to that of adults, with care being taken that there are no pieces that could be too big for baby skinks to swallow.

Substrate:
There are many different opinions on the subject of substrate. I have personally tried many of them myself, and I have found that newspaper, Care-fresh, and artificial-turf have all proven to be effective substrates for me. Cypress mulch is also frequently used and recommended by many keepers. Aspen Bedding has been used by many hobbyists, but it contains long sharp slivers can work their way into the skinks nostrils, eyes, or vent, causing serious injury. It is also hard to keep it out of the skinks food, and can cause very serious problems when ingested. I also avoid orchid bark for the same reasons and because of the possibility of respiratory and skin problems as a result from the red dust that it produces. Note: Never use cedar chips due to the toxic oils that they secrete.

Blue-tongues will often burrow in their substrate if given the opportunity (especially when kept in a glass tank). They do this simply out of convenience, in an effort to get under something and out of sight from potential dangers. Blue-tongues are not burrowing lizards by nature, rather they are opportunistic shelter seekers that do not need a substrate to burrow in if given appropriate hides and an enclosure that provides them with some sense of security.

Sand is also not recommended, mainly because it is very hard to maintain. Blue-tongues can be very messy lizards, causing the sand to have a very unpleasant odor in a relatively short period of time, and it is just not practical to replace the sand as often as you will need to. It is often pointed out to me that sand is often encountered in the wild by many blue-tongue species. However, that does not change the fact that it can get into your skinks eyes, nose, and food, unnecessarily causing potential health risks to your skink. The reason for this is that in the wild the skink is not forced to be in constant contact with the sand 24 hours a day, for its entire life, as it would be in captivity. Let me try to explain. Many of the lizards from the south-western United Stated come in close contact with many different Cactus species. However, cactus is not the best choice of cage décor for these lizards in captivity. The point is, just because something is encountered in the wild, does not automatically make it beneficial in captivity. In captivity we should try to duplicate the beneficial aspects of the wild while decreasing the dangerous and rigorous aspects that the wild also presents.

Lights and Heat:
There are many opinions in regards to lizards and full-spectrum lighting. While it has proven to play an important role in the development and vitamin D3 synthesis of many Iguanid and Agamid species, I am not totally convinced that it is absolutely necessary for the proper growth and development of Blue-tongued Skinks. There are many reports of blue-tongues being raised without any exposure to full-spectrum lighting. However, in the wild, blue-tongues do bask in the sun. Weather this is for UV light benefits, or simply just to raise their body temp, is still in question. I personally believe it to be primarily for the purposes of thermoregulation, and the synthesis of vitamin D3, and I cannot discount the possibility of additional benefits. I would much rather play it safe than sorry, and I still believe that the potential psychological and physiological benefits of full-spectrum lighting make it well worth the effort. A photo-period of 12 hours on and 12 hours off can be established and controlled through the use of a household appliance timer. I maintain this 12-hour photo-period for the entire year, with the exception of when I am cycling my skinks for breeding. A thermogradiant should be established in the cage by providing a basking site of 90-95 degrees at one end of the enclosure while maintaining temperatures of 80-85 degrees at the cool end. This can be accomplished by using an under tank heating pad or spotlight of appropriate wattage, and it will allow the skink to control its body temperature my means of thermoregulation. Night-time temperatures of 70-75 degrees are acceptable.

Water:
Water should be available to your blue-tongue at all times. Be sure that the container is heavy and stable enough to prevent the skink from tipping it over. On occasion, skinks like to soak in their water bowls. They usually do this a few days before they shed. If you can provide them with a large enough bowl to accomplish this, it will aid them in the shedding process. Some Blue-tongued Skinks also have the unsavory habit of defecating in their water bowls. It is important that the water bowl be washed in soap and water whenever this occurs.

Feeding:

In their natural environment Blue-tongued Skinks are opportunistic feeders. This is an adaptation that suits their omnivorous tastes perfectly, making it possible for them to eat almost anything that comes their way, or anything they happen to stumble onto. In the wild they are known to eat arthropods, snails, baby rodents, and other small animals. Blue-tongues also take advantage of the native fruits, berries, flowers, and grasses, readily consuming them when available. By not being specialized hunters with prey specific needs, Blue-tongued Skinks have gained an edge over their reptilian competition, which explains their strong presence in so many different Australian habitats, including urban backyards and gardens.

Skink Mix:
In captivity, I do my best to duplicate the blue-tongue's natural diet. If there were only one word that I could give as advice to a new blue-tongue owner, in regard to proper Blue-tongue nutrition, it would have to be variety. For the Blue-tongued Skink, variety is not only the spice of life; it is a way of life. My skinks relish my cooking, and I have devised a skink mix that makes up for the majority of their diet. This mix is easy to freeze and store in individual zip lock bags. I try to maintain a ratio of 50-60% animal matter to 40-50% Plant matter in their mix. I always try to include new ingredients, when making the mix, so that it is never exactly the same. I have listed some of the items that I frequently use in my mix below.

Animal Matter:
Canned premium cat or dog food (I usually use chicken flavored cat food), moistened monkey chow, ground turkey, dry premium dog or cat food (moistened), hard boiled eggs, lean cuts of meat, boiled chicken, imitation crab meat (sparingly), caned reptile diets, moistened turtle pellets, and moistened koi pellets (sparingly)

Plant Matter:
Chopped mustard, collard, beet, and turnip greens, dandelion greens and flowers, hibiscus flowers (take care that no pesticides or herbicides are present), chopped kale (sparingly), fresh, canned, and thawed frozen fruits, canned or frozen mixed vegetables (peas, carrots, corn, and green beans), grated squash, carrots, apples, and potatoes, moistened iguana diet, and cooked pasta

Supplemental Food Items:
Most insects are taken readily by Blue-tongued skinks. If you are feeding insects, that you have collected, to your skink, it is important to make sure that there is no chance of them being contaminated with pesticides. You can purchase crickets at most pet stores, and they are available in bulk through a large number of mail order companies that advertise in reptile related magazines. Also available are mealworms (Tenebrio molitor), superworms (Zophobas atrauts), waxworms, and sometimes earthworms. Snails are relished with delight by most blue-tongues, but again, you should be certain that no pesticides are present. Rat-pups are great for skinks that are a bit thin and need to put on some weight, and young adult mice make an excellent weekly supplement for gravid females. I also like to offer my skinks an occasional fruit meal consisting of ripe strawberries, peaches, mangos, or canned fruit cocktail.

Vitamin and Mineral Supplementation:
A quality calcium supplement with vitamin D3 is an important factor in maintaining most lizards, including Blue-tongued Skinks. Make sure it is phosphorous free, and do not over supplement. Sprinkle a small amount on the food every other feeding for babies and gravid females, and every third feeding for all other adults. If given a varied diet, blue-tongues will not need any other vitamin or mineral supplements.

RaderRVT Dec 12, 2003 06:54 PM

Thank you for your very thorough post. I have read many of your posts prior to getting my skink. I am a vet tech and believe in thoroughly researching a pet BEFORE you buy it. What I did not research, however, was breeders or suppliers. I was so concerned with a baby dying on me, that I jumped on the first adult ad I saw. I am saddened to know I am a part of such a horrible thing.

The mom is on Carefresh in a 55 gallon enclosure, with a 160 watt MVB, and a water bowl large enough for her to soak her whole body in. She ate for the first timer on Wednesday (two days after I got her) and it was a bowl of dark, leafy greens with mealworms and bananas (to tempt her). She ate almost all of it. I will work on making up your diet for her tonight.

The babies are in a 20 gallon and I will switch their substrate to reptile carpet. It is about 95 on the hot side and 80 on the cool side. They ate mealworms yesterday for the first time. I was worried about crix because of hte substrate so I will offer them as well. Do your babies eat the prepared food you make for the adults? Also, I have been handling them everyday to socialize them. Is this ok? I am going to have to find homes for them because I do not have room for 6 55 gallon tanks and I wat them to be good pets (Mom is a little wild, but doen't try to bite.) How to you mark the babies to tell who is who. I want to weight them daily to make sure they are gaining weight like they should, but it is hard to tell them apart. Thank you for your time and obvious love and care for the animals.
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Stacey

James Wilson Dec 12, 2003 07:27 PM

Stacy,

The babies will eat the mix right away. Remember that you do not need to worry about the veggies right now. Honestly, you can use good high quality professional caned dog or cat food. I have great luck with Iams chicken flavored catfood, or Award home style dog food (chicken cuts w/ barley or veggies). If you use the Award, you have to cut the pieces up into smaller pieces. Do not worry about high fat or protein content of these foods at this stage in the game as it all goes straight to growth. Start to add other items later as they get a taste for the caned food that you use. I personally avoid the meal worms for babies. They are super high in phosphorous, and not very easy to digest. Let me know if I can help you with anything else. You can e-mail me for my # if you have any questions. I am a bad typer...

James tiliquaman@aol.com

RaderRVT Dec 13, 2003 01:27 AM

Picture of the new crew!
Image
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Stacey

RaderRVT Dec 13, 2003 01:34 AM

Here's their mom.
Image
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Stacey

James Wilson Dec 13, 2003 09:24 AM

BTW, your skinks are not the Indonesian BTS (Tiliqua gigas). They are of Indonesian origin, more specifically Southern Irian Jaya, New Guinea. They are commonly refered to as the Irian Jaya BTS (Tiliqua ssp). Although, you will see many people inaccurately refer to them as (Tiliqua scincoides ssp.), they are still as of yet undescribed, and are likely to remain that way for quite some time. Their plight is no different than that of the Indonesian BTS (T. gigas) in that they too are widely exploited in the exact way that T. gigas is just after the mating season as both you and smoke now know. Here is more info on the Irian Jaya BTS.

Irian Jaya Blue-tongued Skink Tiliqua ssp.
(Currently undescribed)

The Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink was recently discovered in the early 1990s, and currently remains undescribed and unnamed. Many hobbyists believe it to be a 4th scincoides subspecies. For the first few years after the Irian Jaya blue-tongue's discovery, it was considered quite rare, and it carried a very expensive price tag. Because of its hardiness and its similar appearance and disposition, to the Common Australian Blue-tongue, it became very popular in the pet trade. In time it became fairly inexpensive, and for a time, replaced the Indonesian blue-tongued skink (Tiliqua gigas) as this country's new and improved blue-tongue import staple.

There is a lot of confusion in regard to the origin and identification of the Irian Jaya blue-tongue, causing it to be frequently misidentified. The Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink has become common in U.S. collections due to the large numbers of them that have been imported in recent years. In spite of this, there is still very little information published about them in current literature. What has been published has usually proven to be misleading, causing even more confusion.

Once the Irian Jaya blue-tongue secured a place in the reptile hobby, importers started calling it the New Guinea blue-tongue. This new name seemed appropriate since this skink is from all of New Guinea, including Papua and Irian Jaya. Unfortunately, this name is also another misused common name for the Indonesian blue-tongued skink (Tiliqua gigas), which also shares New Guinea as a portion of its range. Now, there is at least one book available that pictures both species under this same common name. For obvious reasons I avoid using the term "New Guinea Blue-tongue" so as not to create or perpetuate any more misinformation.

There are many people who find it suspicious that such a large skink could go undiscovered for so long, and once again, there are those who embrace the conspiracy theories. Some literature claims that the Irian Jaya blue-tongue is a man-made mutt, possibly created by intergrading the two Australian scincoides subspecies, smuggeling them out of Australia, and then exporting them out of Irian Jaya with false locality data in order to mask their true origin and to create a more marketable blue-tongued skink for importation. It has been further suggested that other Australian skinks may have been smuggled by unscrupulous individuals into Irian Jaya, and then hybridized on large scale breeding farms, with some animals either escaping or being released into the wild so as to populate the area for future harvesting. There is obviously a great deal of speculation in regards to this "new" blue-tongue, and I feel that it is necessary to set the record straight.

When all of the speculation started, the Irian Jaya blue-tongue was still quite rare and very expensive. At that time this would have provided the motive for the greedy smugglers and exporters, creating at least some basis for the conspiracy theory supporters. However, Irian Jaya blue-tongues were soon imported in large numbers, and have become one of the most affordable of all of the blue-tongues on the market, laying the motive of greed to rest, and making this crime basically impossible to accomplish, due to shear numbers alone. There is simply no way that a smuggling operation of such a large scale could go on without detection for over ten years.

The fact that the Irian Jaya blue-tongue does bear some resemblance to the Australian scincoides does not mean that it is actually a scincoides subspecies. It does, however, raise some interesting questions. The Irian Jaya blue-tongue also shares many physical similarities with the Indonesian blue-tongued skink Tiliqua gigas, while inhabiting a geographic range that falls directly between these two different species. I have also found the Irian Jaya blue-tongue to be totally inconsistent in its color, pattern, and overall morphology, often making identification quite difficult. It is only by using the process of elimination that I am able to identify a given specimen as the Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink. Basically, if it does not fit the bill for any of the other currently described and accepted Tiliqua species or subspecies, then it is an Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink. This skink does not follow any of the rules. In the past, I have been able to take one T. scincoides and one T. gigas and place them on opposite ends of a table with 8 Irian Jaya blue-tongues in between, creating a line natural progression that flows so smoothly from one end to the other that there is no place to draw a line between the two species. Also of interest is the fact that when the Irian Jaya blue-tongue is cross bred with any other Tiliqua species or subspecies, the offspring always come out looking like Irian Jaya blue-tongues. The same can be said for intergrade offspring that I have seen from a breeding between T. g. gigas and T. g. evanescens. What does all of this suggest?

In order to get some idea as to the actual origin of the Irian Jaya blue-tongue, we should first look at the evolutionary origins of the genus Tiliqua in New Guinea. Evidence suggests that T. gigas is the sister species to T. scincoides, and that these two form a clade that is a sister clade to remaining Tiliqua species (possibly excluding T. adelaidensis). Experts also agree that Tiliqua is the sister taxon to Cyclodomorphus, Trachydosaurus, and Hemisphaeriodon, all of which are exclusive to Australia. Knowing this, it is quite safe to conclude that Tiliqua is an Australian genus, and that T. gigas evolved form an Australian ancestor.

According to Dr. Glenn Shea, there are two different theories as to how this may have happened, and what role it plays in the Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink’s origin. The first is that T. scincoides dispersed into New Guinea across the Torres Straight via an existing land bridge thus giving rise to T. gigas, afterwhich a second scincoides invasion to the extreme south occurred with the later closure of the Torres Strait and the subsequent hybridization that resulted in a population of hybrid animals that gave rise to the Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink. The second theory is that a common ancestor which occurred in both Australia and New Guinea evolved separately into T. gigas and T. scincoides due to some geographical barrier(s) other than the Torres Strait in New Guinea (possibly the Maoke mountain range). Hybridization resulted from the subsequent reintroduction of the two different species that later became isolated due to the closure of the Torres Straight, leaving us with the hybrid population of animals that we now know as the Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink. Both theories basically suggest the same thing, and that is that the Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink is the result of past hybridization between T. gigas and T. scincoides.

While the elaborate conspiracy schemes make for exciting writing, they are based on weak logic, employing many fallacies in reasoning, and are written by individuals with limited or no experience on the subject. After reviewing all of the evidence, I have to agree with Dr. Shea in that the Irian Jaya blue-tongue is a naturally occurring hybrid population that went overlooked in a country that has new reptiles being discovered every year. Unfortunately, because of these findings it is very unlikely that this skink will ever be given its own scientific designation. However, there are currently genetic studies being performed to detect if there has been any hybridization, and how this unique and popular blue-tongued skink fits into the genetic puzzle in comparison with the other described species.

Description: The Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink is one of the more variable blue-tongues. It often looks almost like a cross between the Eastern, Northern, and the Indonesian blue-tongued skinks, borrowing different characteristics from each of them. It is common for many of these characteristics to be inconsistent, and or muted, thus, making identification difficult, and adding to its already confusing status. Like the eastern blue-tongue, it has the bold bands, that cross over the back and onto the sides. The head is variable, often resembling the northern blue-tongue which lacks the dark temporal streak. There are exceptions, with some individuals having strong temporal streaks, which is a trait known to some populations of the Eastern blue-tongue. The Irian Jaya blue-tongue's tail is longer than the other two Australian subspecies, accounting for 65-85% of the snout-vent length. The forelimbs are also quite variable, ranging from dark brown (but never black) with some cream flecking on them (resembling the Indonesian) to a lighter brown with almost no flecking on them (looking more like, but not as light as, the Eastern or Northern blue-tongues). The hind limbs are usually darker than the forelimbs, and very often have large cream spots on them. Their anterior temporal scales are elongated and much longer than the other temporal scales. With a maximum size of 22 inches, the Irian Jaya blue-tongue is a relatively large blue-tongue that can produce up to 15, unusually large, live young in a litter.

Distribution and habitat: The Irian Jaya blue-tongued skink inhabits the dry tropical regions of southern coastal New Guinea that are similar in climate and habitat to adjacent northern Australia. Its range includes both Irian Jaya (the western half of New Guniea that is governed by Indonesia, and allows exportation of its wildlife), and Papua, New Guinea (the eastern half of New Guinea that is governed by Australia, and allows no exportation of its wildlife.)

Brian-SFCRC Dec 13, 2003 08:21 PM

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location LEE/2.

RaderRVT Dec 14, 2003 12:50 AM

I was going to ask which species you thought she was. I kept finding more and more pictures of skinks online and in books, but I could not decide which she was. Thank you for clearing that up. BTW, they LOVE your diet. Mama ate an entire dish and the babies just dug in! Thank you for all of your help!!

Mama is doing really well, she seems to be settling in. She never tries to bite and doesn't even hiss as much as before. When I came in this morning she was out basking under her bulb. The babies are coming along great. Eating well, very easy to handle.

I sure have learned my lesson, but I am just sorry it had to be AFTER I participted in such an atrocity.
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Stacey

James Wilson Dec 14, 2003 09:25 AM

Honestly, I do not see it quite like that. You did what you did unknowingly. You were basically taken advantage of. The importers and exporters know the game, but the consumers do not know the full extent of the situation. No one consumer can know everything. You should see how they brutalize me when I buy a car. Anyway, I am very glad to hear that they are all doing well. Feel free to contact me directly if you need anything as I am rarely here these days.

eve Dec 13, 2003 03:02 PM

Good luck with them all Stacey ! :P Eve

RaderRVT Dec 14, 2003 12:52 AM

Thank you eve. They have been alot of fun.
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Stacey

eve Dec 14, 2003 12:06 PM

Then its time to seperate or it willbe like Friday night at the fights. They are so sweet looking hard to believe this will happen , isn't it? You rfemale is pretty !
I just posted down the page my girl chiquita, a Merauke BTS. I love her, shes very docile, but them I handle all my lizards everyday. I have fun too ! Eve

Brian-SFCRC Dec 13, 2003 08:29 PM

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/2

Brian-SFCRC Dec 13, 2003 09:54 PM

SOUTHERN FLORIDA CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (SFCRC)

Location: LEE/2 *

* Burr! It cold up here! (in South Carolina)

James,

I commend you on a well-written piece. Since we are talking East of the Wallace Line, It is logical to assume that gigas evolved from Australian stem stock- but other theories may be entertained.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

James Wilson Dec 13, 2003 10:30 PM

Very kind of you to say. I am always interested in other ideas, and would love to hear any other ideas on the subject of where eles T. gigas could have possibly evolved from. Again, thanks for the kind words...

eve Dec 12, 2003 10:44 AM

Hope they all do well, and stay healthy for you, Good Luck with them, have a great weekend ! Eve

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