Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have had my little fella for over 3 months. He seems to be very active, appears healthy, and eats consistantly. My concerns are in his weight. He has not gained any weight since the day I bought him....not even 1 gram. I realize that they have a slow metabolism, but I assumed the he would put on a little weight at this age (about 1 year old). What is the average weight of an adult male Ornate?

Thanks

I was having the same problem with my hatchling malist. I think the way to fix that is get a larger tank, get at least 8 inches of moist/digable dirt in that cage, and make the basking spot a little hotter. After 3 weeks of this change they are starting to grow a lot faster. Infact, since last Sunday they gained at least 3-4 grams. That is 1 gram a day verse 1 gram ever 1-2 weeks. I think if oyu house them on birdseeds, paper, or dry loose sand only a few inches they wont thrive, but if you put them on some moist top soil dirt i think they will thrive. Just try it out. If you think the basking spot is right, and your tank is big enough, then get some moist dirt in the cage and see what happens after a few weeks.
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Mike
1.1.3 maliensis (Spike, Marshmellow, Brown, Green, Orange)
0.2 Female U. Acanthinurus-Werneri x "coming soon"
0.1 Pit Bull/German Shephard/ Lab/ ect. mix (Kodak) - looks like an over grown toco bell dog.

Check out Uronature.com...it's a study of ornate uro's in the wild and indicates they have a very slow growth rate: hatchlings 4-5 grams, 1 year old's 22-32 grams, 2 year old's 50 grams, 3 year old's 98 grams and 4 year old's 180 grams, which is when they reach sexual maturity..Growth rates in capitivity tend to be much faster, but the researchers feel this could be detrimental in the long run, and lead to health problems and a shorter life span..

Also, I would be cautious about adding "damp" soil to the cage..there's a section on soil humidity in the study area (Israel), that indicates soil humidity is quite low, even several centimeters below the surface, averaging 3-5%...Hope this helps...

SR

am i the only one thinking about this, u guys are changing your setups a lil too quick, maybe things seem to be going better now but what about in the long run, moist or damp soil will give off alot and i mean alot of humidity aren't any of u thinking about this or even checking your humidity, from what i've seen lindsay and mark walsh, costellano, doug dix are incredible with uros and breed them and uros thrive with them but they haven't used dirt from what i know, i don't wanna sound like an a**hole but i been thinking about this and it seems like no one else has, any replies would be wonderful

You're not the only one who's uneasy about the new moist soil. I'm mainly concerned with the fact that I don't always have someone to babysit Ra when my fiance and I are gone (vacations, family emergencies, etc.) and I do worry about the soil drying out and caving in on him. (By the way, I haven't lived with my parents for over 2 years now and they are 8 hours from where I am living)
In order to give my uro that comfortable "burrow" feeling, I am in the process of designing a burrow consisting of plastic tubing and either Rubbermaid or Tupperware containers (kind of like a nesting box) which I will bury in deeper substrate, leaving only the end of the tubing uncovered. Hopefully, Ra will see it as a pre-dug den and enjoy it. I won't have to worry about cave-ins or high humidity
Plus, I can easily dig him out in an emergency.
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1 Mali Uromastyx named Ra

I, too, am uneasy with the moist part of the soil substrates. Will you let me know how the burrow box works out? That's kind of what I had in mind to try, but I have neither time nor dinero right now to work on anything new. Thanks!
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Torey
1.1 Uromastyx Geyri (Joe and Arthur)
0.1 Anolis Carolinensis (Leeloo)
1.0 Betta Splendens (Mr. Miagi)
1.1 Felis Domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

but I'll need a bigger tank to pull this off (I plan to upgrade as soon as I have enough money saved up). I'll take some before and after pics once I have this done.

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1 Mali Uromastyx named Ra

This quote is from Dix's site:
"For most cages we also add a nest box to simulate a burrow/sleeping chamber and the naturally higher humidity contained
there-in. This is usually made from a Rubbermaid "Roughneck" brand 3.3 gal. or larger soft plastic tub. We then insert a piece of
3" diameter pipe into the upper side of the box to act as the "burrow" leading to the nest/sleeping "chamber". The tube then extends
approx. 18" from the side of the tub with the end touching the ground, preferably along the back wall of the cage. We prefer soft
PVC drainage pipe as it's flexible, cheap and ribbed for easy footing. Fill the tub with only very slightly damp 50/50 sand/potting soil"

All Robyn(and others willing to experiment) is doing is skipping the use of a seperate burrow box and using a large enclosure where micro habitats can be created.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Thanks for the information. I read the section from Uronature concerning soil humidity and you are definately right. Even at 60cm, it is very dry. I don't know if that was a misprint or not, but 60cm is almost 2 feet down! They continue to take measurements down to 4 feet with very very low moisture content. It would be impossible for me to duplicate this with 1 inch substrate. My little guy weighs in at 45g and he is around 16 months old. According to Uronature, he is a little heavier than their study in the wild. I did not expect a young reptile to show no signs of growth for a 3 month period....maybe it is normal.

Don't forget we're in mid-winter now and your uro's metabolism has proabably been slowing since September or October...I wouldn't expect any active growth until February or March when they "wake up" due to increasing day length..He sounds perfectly normal to me

SR

(much of this post combines with my other posts and theories posted over the last few weeks, just scroll down for more background)

no growth for 3 months for a juvie lizard? that is not normal or healthy by any stretch of the imagination.

we have seen animals go from hatchlings at 3 and 4 grams, to over 100 grams, in 3 months. they don't have gigantism, but rather, access to all the tools they need to grow and thrive

you can get animals obese, that isn't too hard. lots of food, poor nutrition, and especially poor heating, and boom, fatsoes. we have growing, thriving Uros, with great body weight and shape, no fatsoes at all

with proper setup, access to heat (metabolism) and food (calories and nutrition), the roof is blown off accepted Uro "standards" and "new" goals are reachable.

for Hobby, your growth is a problem, because you should see SOMETHING, to be sure. it is supposed to be a growing juvie. you won't necessarily see our kind of results because of the limitations of the setup (i believe), but still, something! and i think your concern is well founded. (i would also start right away with a few fecals and treatment for internal parasites!)

on the monitor side of things, we regularly raise hatchlings to breeding adults within a single year. lots of breeders have done that. with great health and success, over many many generations. when we got into Uros, we thought that there was no reason why we couldn't use the same approach and theory and see the same success. we are only a few months in, but we are seeing the SAME steps and results that we see with our monitors, and everything looks VERY POSITIVE!

the final proof is in the eggs, the reproduction, and hopefully that will come in 2004 : ) we are working hard at that.

we have learned a ton breeding monitors. monitors, uros, lizards, lizards, lizards. more similar than different. apply apply apply!

a soil setup can be poorly executed, certainly. a dry, small, plastic and bird seed setup is also poorly executed. each has a number of problems, detrimental to health, growth and success. a well carried out soil setup is another universe entirely compared to a poor soil setup. simply having "soil" is not the answer! it is about the way it is applied and how the Uros can make use of it properly.

best of luck to Hobby, get your Uros growing!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

A few things to consider. The measurement that they are calling humidity inthis experiment is not a measure of the air humudity in a Uro burrow. It is just a measure of the amount of water present in the sample. All they did was take the amount of water in grams, and divided it by the sample wieght and multiplied by 100 to get a %. There wasn't ant instrumentation used to measure humidity. They said that the air humidity was where they took the samples was 10-20%, I would imagine the air humidity of a burrow would be higher than that. It would make sense that they would seek out areas with a relatively high humidity, and it would also make sense that they would seek very dry hot basking areas. This is why it is important when setting up a habitat that uses a soil substrate, that the cage be large enough to create these micro climates.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

i can't seem to pull up the Uronature site, do you have a link or exact address?

thanks!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/runningbrook/729/id26.htm

here ya go.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

"moist dirt" can be misleading. i try not use the term too much, because it is so easy to take it out of context, but it is at the same time a good word, so sometimes hard to avoid : )

when you look in our cages, you don't see any "moist" dirt at all. it is just regular dirt (although orange : )

it is actually pretty dry on top, and sometimes has a light crust. the setup is NOT one where it is a mudbath in there, not at all. the soil is moist enough so that burrows hold well, and indeed, there is a higher humidity level in the actual burrows, but still, it is not at all wet, and i think that is the mental image folks are seeing when they read about "moist soil".

as for depth of humidity in the wild habitat, i can buy that it is quite dry for a couple feet, no problem.

in fact, that ties in nicely with Dr. Sprackland's first hand Uro field observations that he related to me just last month. he said they would find Uro burrows, and the entrance would go straight down for three or four feet (!) before taking a 90 degree turn and then heading sideways into the actual blossom of the livable burrow. very uncritically, it seems to me that matches up well with the top few feet of dirt being too dry to make a livable burrow, so the Uros have to go down into the moist soil. in our setups, they don't have to go nearly that far, although they will invariably go to the bottom of the two ft deep substrate, whether they be Uros, Gilas, or monitors.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles