Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone,

I just have 2 quick questions and hope someone out there can help me...well maybe 3..lol

1) I just got my burm on saturday...he ate a small rat on monday night and I was thinking of holding him for the first time tonight or this weekend. Ive heard they can be quite nippy as babies and told I should use gloves. Is that true? what types of gloves do you all recommend?

2) Should I invest in a cage hook?

and 3)

My burm is in the same room as my office, Will music and a treadmill freak him out?

thanks all

If you are new to keeping snakes and want to build your confidence, there is nothing wrong with wearing gloves (leather work gloves work well...don't use cloth as sharp snake teeth can get easily snagged)....but, I would personally recommend trying to let the snake get used to the scents of your hands/body w/out gloves (that is very important in building a trusting relationship). You do what you are comfortable with (once you get that first bite out of the way, the rest is easy).

YES, GET A GOOD SNAKE HOOK....even youngsters should be hooked and it will diminish the chances for errant strikes and stupid feeding errors. Get the snake used to knowing that when it is hooked, it is coming out of its cage. That way, when you feed the snake inside its cage (and that is really the ONLY method you should follow irregardless of what anyone else says...sorry, I am VERY opinionated on this topic and will argue it to death), it will quickly learn when it is feeding time and when it is coming out.

In terms of noises, as long as the music is soft and not too loud, you will be fine. Avoid heavy and loud music that creates unnecessary vibrations (and subsequent stress). If you have a good treadmill that is fairly quiet and once again, doesn't vibrate too much, you should be fine.

Hope this helps. Rob Carmichael

1) I just got my burm on saturday...he ate a small rat on monday night and I was thinking of holding him for the first time tonight or this weekend. Ive heard they can be quite nippy as babies and told I should use gloves. Is that true? what types of gloves do you all recommend?

2) Should I invest in a cage hook?

and 3)

My burm is in the same room as my office, Will music and a treadmill freak him out?

Thank you for the response.

well Ive only had him since saturday and he was striking at the glass, me and urinating everywhere. Should I wait a few more days. I fed him on monday night and his lump is already gone. wait and feed til the next monday?

Also I will feed him in his cage. I have read so many arguments of th difficulty of moving a hungry 12 foot burm..so thats no issue

once again thanks...your advice is appreciated

Ease into the handling; if the snake isn't quite ready for handling sessions, just keep them very brief or don't handle at all for a little while longer. Feeding every 7-10 days is perfectly fine. You might also want to tape some paper to cover at least part of the front of the cage; this too, will help the snake acclimate more quickly.

Hi Rob...Im very interested in your reasoning as to why its better to feed inside the cage as opposed to feeding in a seperate enclosure to avoid the snake associating the cage opening with "feeding time".

Im not rob

BUT..when you feed him out of the cage when he's little its fine, but try moving him/her at full size, couple of hundred pounds, with a feeding response still intact...not the easiest thing to do.. A snake can learn and tell the difference between feeding and non feeding times...just my .02

Regarding moving an adult burm that can weigh a couple hundred pounds, I agree that it may not be convenient or feasable to move him when its feeding time. At that point, I would not even have a suitable "feeding tub" large enough to do this in.

I personally happen to feed outside of the enclosure mainly to prevent substrate ingestion. The flooring of my enclosures arent limited to just newspaper, but rather newspaper with a light layer of substrate. But the reason I asked was to see what the arguement was for feeding inside the enclosure. The general consensus tends to be that feeding inside the cage will cause a snake to associate opening of the cage, or sticking your hand/arm in the cage with feeding time and could trigger a Pavlovian response. Its interesting to get different opinions though.

THat is probably the only valid reason for feeding outside of the cage. My burms are not conditioned to seeing the door open and expecting food due to my training methods. But, I would recommend placing another layer of paper over your substrate and feed the snake on top of that. What substrate do you use? I have some of my really big burms on aspen and I have never had any problems; even with occasional accidental ingestion due to teh small size of the shredded wood. But, in the end, you must do what you feel is best and if this is what works for you, then no big deal.

My opinions on this subject vary and are a little paradoxical. While I completely agree with Rob that it is the best, safest, easiest and fastest to feed inside the cage,.... I also don't think that there aren't exceptions. I feel that in terms of advice for novice burmese keepers or "newbies" with their first burm or retic that this is certainly the most fitting, 'cookie cutter' answer to the oft asked question, "should I feed in or out of the cage." But I certainly would not email Dave Barker and tell him that he should only feed inside the cages. I would think that with his vast experience that he could probably safely feed his burms (if he still has any) anywhere he chose. So I do indeed feel that there are exceptions to this and that the main one is that there is a lot of leeway with more experience in the equation. I know that I can walk into any given python room right now and feed a big girl outside of the cage and do it safely and without any danger to myself or others. But I don't suggest that anyone with less than considerable experience do this.

Now, to answer your question and to try to lend a little insight into this particular subject: I don't think it was so much the "opening of the cage", so much as the actual process of removing the python to eat elsewhere. The snake may begin to associate being moved or held with being fed and in the heightened anticipation of a meal may inadvertently harm the keeper. Then there is also the simple fact that burms are often not completely satisfied with a single meal and may have additional feeding responses after having eaten when it is time to be returned to the cage. Some may say that the burm could get sick, but I don't think this is a consideration until the digestive process is well underway and there is some decomposition of the meal. And the most important con against feeding outside the cage is,.. why? Why even bother feeding somewhere else. Just keep it simple, feed in the cage and don't even take the additional risks associated with feeding outside.

>>Hi Rob...Im very interested in your reasoning as to why its better to feed inside the cage as opposed to feeding in a seperate enclosure to avoid the snake associating the cage opening with "feeding time".
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

I’d bet that few of the people who ask for guidance here on whether to feed their giant pythons inside or outside the cage have experience with really large snakes. They’ve gotten hatchlings or relatively small animals and are looking for guidance. Sorry, but telling them that novices should feed their snakes inside the cage, but that it is okay for an experienced keeper to interact with a big python outside its cage at feeding time is just lousy husbandry advice. For the safety of the snake as well as for the keeper.

I really don't know what's so hard to understand,.. but maybe I should dumb it down a tad. What I said was comparable to saying that a kid should not drive a car, but that it is okay for race car drivers to drive very fast.

Seriously,. it really kind of goes without saying Joan,... if someone knows what they are doing then it's a different story altogether. I really don't know how to explain to you in simpler terms. There is nothing wrong with pointing out those FACTS.

>>I’d bet that few of the people who ask for guidance here on whether to feed their giant pythons inside or outside the cage have experience with really large snakes. They’ve gotten hatchlings or relatively small animals and are looking for guidance. Sorry, but telling them that novices should feed their snakes inside the cage, but that it is okay for an experienced keeper to interact with a big python outside its cage at feeding time is just lousy husbandry advice. For the safety of the snake as well as for the keeper.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

I know we’d all love to see a photo of you picking up a really large python that has just fed all by yourself and then getting it safely back up and into its cage. How large is your largest retic? How about your largest Burmese? It’s okay if they’re not really very big yet, I’d still be interested in seeing how someone “who knows what they are doing.” handles this situation.

Once again you have missed to overall point. Shall I explain it again? It wasn't about me or my ability to feed giant snakes. It was simply about the fact that when one has experience the general rules do not really apply.

My largest burmese is one of my albino granites. She is approximately 15 feet. My largest retic is one of my albino females. She is approximately 16 feet. Not bad considering that they are under 3 years old. Most of the other burmese, retics and even numerous rocks, are between 11 and 13 feet and there are quite a few. Over 60 in all. And Joan,.. I was keeping giant pythons when I was 12, back in the mid 70's. Want pictures of those years too? Shall I draw up a resume` for you? Cause I sure have an urge to prove myself to the mental midget minority today.

Good day, and happy herping

>>I know we’d all love to see a photo of you picking up a really large python that has just fed all by yourself and then getting it safely back up and into its cage. How large is your largest retic? How about your largest Burmese? It’s okay if they’re not really very big yet, I’d still be interested in seeing how someone “who knows what they are doing.” handles this situation.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Over 60??!! Wow. I would like to see some photos of your set up and see how you do it.

Tom

Oh yes, and that's just adults and subadults. There are also younger pythons and boas being raised that were either purchased, traded for, or the result of previous clutches selected for their beauty. But the number always fluctuates. Right now I have gravid albino granite females, gravid albino labyrinth females, gravid albino retic females, one of the female albino patternless is gravid, and a number of lesser value breeds and phases are also currently gravid. By April or May the number will be in the hundreds.

As to my system/s I keep it real simple and cost effective. I'm glad you asked because I am quite proud of the systems that I shaped to make all of this very easy to do. I build all of my own cages. Most of my cage structures are 6 1/2 feet tall by 3 1/2 feet deep and 6 1/2 feet wide. Each structure has four 18 inch high cages built into it. Each cage tower, as I call them is on large industrial rubber swivel wheels. For smaller breeds or subadult snakes I make cage towers that are 6 1/2 feet tall, 2 feet deep, and 4 feet wide, again with 4 cages built into one tower and again, always on swivel wheels. There are 4 very basic designs that I make that all fit very nicely in any given room regardless of the size. I currently operate 4 reptile rooms. The temperature and humidity is controlled in each room. To make maintainence much easier I also built rolling work stations which are outfitted with newspapers, waste disposal containers and other supplies. On bowl cleaning day (we wash every Sunday and call that day of the week "Super Bowl Sunday" lol because there are SO many bowls) the rolling station is outfitted with two large wash and rinse tubs with hot water antibacterial soap and about 5% bleach. Every snake has two personal water bowls. To save additional time, as we clean each bowl an already clean and dry bowl (designated to that snake) is placed into the cage and filled. The first bowl is washed, rinsed, and placed on a towel to dry. Then on to the next cage. The whole operation takes roughly one hour at about 30 seconds per bowl. For little juvie snakes I simply replace disposable bowls with new bowls and toss out the old. The daily cage cleaning is very similar in nature. We go from cage to cage and roll up any soiled newspaper and replace that section with new. As most cages are usually unsoiled this process takes even less time than Super Bowl washing.

Let me know if you want to hear more about my operation. I also have "Milk Snake Monday" the day designated for the care and maintainence of all colubrids, "Tap Tub Tuesday" the day to wash out the python's soak tubs and refill with warm tap water (they get filtered water in their drinking bowls) "Water Change Wednesday", the day we dump and replace their drinking water, This day is also divided to "Weekly Wave Wednesday" in the rat facility, (yes, we have an extensive rat facility that churns out between 3000 and 5000 rats per month) this weekly wave involves the day which I wean a generation of young rats, and "wave up" a mature batch of young but mature females into breeding colonies (usually about 150 females per week, sometimes more), the weekly wave day also carries over into our huge rabbit breeding operation. We keep and breed roughly 60 female rabbits at any one time to produce between 200 and 300 rabbits per month. Like the rats, these are predominately for the snakes to eat, but we do sell surplus stock to other reptile breeders/keepers at a low price. Thursday is mostly a day off, unless a "Preggo Pull" day happens to land on that day (I pull pregnant females every 4 days. Takes me about an hour to pull about 100 pregnant females on average and set them up in the maternity racks [I posted pics of my rat facility last July or August]. Then there is "Feeding Friday", my fav day of the week (today in fact!) in which I make it a point to feed every snake that wants to eat. Basically every day is a feeding day, but on Fridays I try to feed everyone. Saturdays are basically day's off, but there's alsways something to do. Just never a lot.

Since I don't work I actually do all this and have much more free time than any person holding down an 8 to 5 job. My average day consists of about 2 hours of "work". Though I am reluctant to refer to it as "work" since I like doing it all.

If you have any other questions Tom don't hesitate to ask them. I love talkin repile any time. Happy Herping

>>Over 60??!! Wow. I would like to see some photos of your set up and see how you do it.
>>
>>Tom
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

No need for name calling, dear. I asked you to illustrate your technique with a photo. If your answer was “No,” then that’s enough and that’s okay.

I rarely post here. But, in the past, I’ve noticed that anyone who questioned something you advocate was usually met immediately with a “Who do you think you are?” type of response filled with silly name calling. It had seemed to me recently that you might be trying to work on this by using a calm and reasoned approach to state your case. But I guess that’s sometimes difficult.

“Brian,” perhaps the time will come when you don’t have to post anonymously under a made-up name. I’m sure it is not lost on anyone here that I post under my real name.

To keep this discussion on track, my largest reticulated python exceeded 100 pounds; my largest Burmese python exceeded 200 pounds (both were exhibited at a regional herpetological society’s educational shows, and were seen and touched by thousands of people). But even after raising them up for 20 years, I wouldn’t have been caught dead feeding them outside of their cages. Uh, I mean, I just might have been found dead had I done so! It wasn’t an “experience” thing; it was a “best husbandry practices” thing.

On reflection, in my initial post I think I could have chosen a better term than “lousy husbandry” to describe feeding giant snakes outside of their cages. How about “ an ill-advised husbandry practice”?

-Joan

Joan, you can't expect to insult someone and to not recieve a rude response in return. I make no excuses and regret nothing. You insulted me and I feel that you owe me an apology. You have also misconstrued all of the facts here in this thread. I never suggested that anyone do that. I simply pointed out that I would never presume to tell someone with great experience that they couldn't or shouldn't feed outside of the cage. Then I simply stated that I knew I could safely feed anywhere any time because I know these snakes so well. I still stand by this. I can read them and their body language. And quite frankly, if you have been keeping them for 20 years and haven't learned enough about them to be able to do the same then I must think that you fall into that sad catagory of keepers that may have been in the hobby for a long time, but have learned little. No offnese on this one, but this is the impression I get from what you say.

As far as my name goes,. lol,. everyone here and elsewhere already knows that my name is Damon. Big whoop-teedoo. I explained it all a couple of months ago, it was accepted and everyone has moved on. You are on yesterday's news page hon. I just keep the screen name because it is recognizable. Get over this. It isn't a big deal. It never was.

I don't think any of this is really the issue with you. Simply put, I think you have a personal agenda with me and you nit pick things whenever you THINK you see an oportunity or fracture in the credibility of my posts. Well dear, it is transparent. And blatently obvious.

I think it is also apparent that you came off to me very rudely first and insulted me on groundless allusions that are false. The way you misconstrue this thread is as if I had suggested that people should feed outside the cage. Nothing could be further from the truth. And it is totally absurd that you try to make it look this way.

I think it is generaly known that I am very nice to people and am very friendly in my posts. I was even friendly to you recently even though you have attempted this "character assassination" with me in the past. More than once, I might add.

Look,.. whatever it is that you don't like about me,. just get over it and move on. But I'd still like to get an apology from you for calling my advice lousy. It was not and you are in the wrong here.

>>No need for name calling, dear. I asked you to illustrate your technique with a photo. If your answer was “No,” then that’s enough and that’s okay.
>>
>>I rarely post here. But, in the past, I’ve noticed that anyone who questioned something you advocate was usually met immediately with a “Who do you think you are?” type of response filled with silly name calling. It had seemed to me recently that you might be trying to work on this by using a calm and reasoned approach to state your case. But I guess that’s sometimes difficult.
>>
>>“Brian,” perhaps the time will come when you don’t have to post anonymously under a made-up name. I’m sure it is not lost on anyone here that I post under my real name.
>>
>>To keep this discussion on track, my largest reticulated python exceeded 100 pounds; my largest Burmese python exceeded 200 pounds (both were exhibited at a regional herpetological society’s educational shows, and were seen and touched by thousands of people). But even after raising them up for 20 years, I wouldn’t have been caught dead feeding them outside of their cages. Uh, I mean, I just might have been found dead had I done so! It wasn’t an “experience” thing; it was a “best husbandry practices” thing.
>>
>>On reflection, in my initial post I think I could have chosen a better term than “lousy husbandry” to describe feeding giant snakes outside of their cages. How about “ an ill-advised husbandry practice”?
>>
>>-Joan
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Brian, you preach that the "experts" need to educate the novices (and I agree wholeheartedly); particularly for breeders who are selling these snakes to folks with very little experience. Practicing what we preach is paramount if we want responsible big snake owners out there. In my opinion, there is no room for deviation; expert or novice...PERIOD. You mentioned Dave Barker...I would have no problem telling ANYONE that if they feed their giant snakes outside of their enclosures, that is WRONG. And, I also believe that moving a giant snake soon after feeding is VERY stressful whether the snake has begun the digestive process or not....I know of several documented cases of burms/retics regurging their prey as a result of owners moving them back into their cages....to me, that is just stupidity at its best. The same goes with the many venomous snakes I keep....there are ABSOLUTES when keeping and handling them in a responsible manner and anyone who keeps hots responsibly will agree with me. A friend, who also keeps venomous, once told me, "there are two kinds of people who keep venomous; those that have already been bit by one, and those that will someday get bit by one"...I couldn't disagree more with that comment. Because I am meticulous in the PROCESS that I follow, I know that I will NEVER be bit (that isn't to be conscrued as being overconfident, but highly respectful for what these animals can do and as such, I take the appropriate precautions). I think I know what you are getting at but having raised and bred (and currently) keep some truly gigantic burms (18' , 260lb plus range), I can't imagine EVERY trying to feed these monsters (even docile ones) outside of their enclosure (or walk in and say "here's dinner". I think we (and that means folks who have many years of experience; including Joan who has far more than most of us here and has a right to speak her mind on this subject due to her experience) need to set the standard for responsible keeping of giant constrictors.

or maybe I'm not. Is Joan a friend of yours? Just curious. (I'm wagering she is)

I made it very clear what I was saying in my original post and there is no need to rehash it now, but she was way out of line saying my advice was "lousy" when it was never my advice to feed out of cages. I just used an example. But I am not explaining anything to you. We are actually in agreement where the base issue is concerned. It is also clear where you stand on my other views and I respect that. Not everyone has to agree. And unlike Joan you did not insult me to voice your opinion/s.

>>Brian, you preach that the "experts" need to educate the novices (and I agree wholeheartedly); particularly for breeders who are selling these snakes to folks with very little experience. Practicing what we preach is paramount if we want responsible big snake owners out there. In my opinion, there is no room for deviation; expert or novice...PERIOD. You mentioned Dave Barker...I would have no problem telling ANYONE that if they feed their giant snakes outside of their enclosures, that is WRONG. And, I also believe that moving a giant snake soon after feeding is VERY stressful whether the snake has begun the digestive process or not....I know of several documented cases of burms/retics regurging their prey as a result of owners moving them back into their cages....to me, that is just stupidity at its best. The same goes with the many venomous snakes I keep....there are ABSOLUTES when keeping and handling them in a responsible manner and anyone who keeps hots responsibly will agree with me. A friend, who also keeps venomous, once told me, "there are two kinds of people who keep venomous; those that have already been bit by one, and those that will someday get bit by one"...I couldn't disagree more with that comment. Because I am meticulous in the PROCESS that I follow, I know that I will NEVER be bit (that isn't to be conscrued as being overconfident, but highly respectful for what these animals can do and as such, I take the appropriate precautions). I think I know what you are getting at but having raised and bred (and currently) keep some truly gigantic burms (18' , 260lb plus range), I can't imagine EVERY trying to feed these monsters (even docile ones) outside of their enclosure (or walk in and say "here's dinner". I think we (and that means folks who have many years of experience; including Joan who has far more than most of us here and has a right to speak her mind on this subject due to her experience) need to set the standard for responsible keeping of giant constrictors.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

I have known Joan for a number of years through the Chicago Herpetological Society and have great respect for her. She always educates the public on responsible herp ownership and her experience can probably run circles around mine. I read her posts and didn't really see anything wrong with them (based on other comments). I also think I know what you were getting at but I don't think that the supposed experts should be saying that even though beginners should do it one way, that the experts should do it a different way. Sure, the more experience one gets, the more confident they get in their abilities. This may result in cutting corners at times or doing things slightly differently (like taking out a large burm by yourself instead of having several people on hand....I'M GUILTY). But, I will also say that this isn't right so I guess I am a bit hypocritical. In most of my interactions with my animals (large snakes, monitors, venomous reptiles and even the raptors) I am always trying to practice what I preach and lead by example....otherwise, what we say is nothing but foolishness. Not trying to argue with anyone, just saying what I feel is best in this instance.

I know that I don't own a mature burm yet..........But, I maintain that snakes should not be feed outside their tank. I have a few large boas. I have had retics, burms, and borneos. I would never in a million years think about feeding them outside their enclosure.

My boas fit in the 7-9 foot range. Not too big according to burms or tics....But, they could still do some damage. I have tub fed at times for certain reasons. It generally consists of a boa trying to take my face off when I re-open the tub. It is solely a feeding response.

I also think it is a HUGE myth that animals will become accustomed to a feeding schedule in their tank and become more aggressive. I understancd that if you only feed them and don't handle them much this will happen. But, when I had my two tics and burm both were very mellow coming out of the tank. (I used a hook of course) But, none of them had a feeding response due to the cage door opening.

None of my boas do this as well. All are easy to get out of a tank......And, they are all tank fed.
Just my opinion.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

For small burms, it isn't as big of an issue. But since many of the burms I keep have been with me on a long term basis (and the many rescues I do usually involves large and sometimes aggressive adults) are large adults, try to feed a large snake like this in a separate cage. Look at this scenario:

You lug your big snake (which may not even want to be moved at that point) into a separate cage/container. You then feed that hungry snake. It eats. It is still perhaps still hungry (or it may have eaten a meal so big that it doesn't want to be moved or "mucked" with). Now you have to deal with either a still-hungry snake or a snake that doesn't want to be messed with back into its own cage. You are not only putting a HUGE stress load by moving that snake, but you are putting yourself in REAL danger.

In my 20 years of professional herp experience, I have never encountered ONE problem with feeding a large snake in its own cage. If you follow responsible handling/feeding practices, there is nothing to worry about. This includes the use of hooks/shields/tongs/etc. My large burms know the difference between feeding time and coming-out-to-play time...just a matter of consistent training and following a good routine.

I could go on in much more detail on this but I think you get the jist of what I am saying. Rob

OK..back to my first 2 questions.

Should I wait til saturday or sunday to handle him ( that will be a week ive had him) and should I feed every 5 days or is 1 small rat every 7 days ok?

Here are two methods that I use that will help minimize your snake developing a feeding response everytime that the cage door is opened. The first is to utilize a feed door. Most "hot" keepers use this method. If you look at most prefab cages you will notice that most of them have two doors. I built my cages using the animal plastic and boaphile cages as a base design. Anyway, one door I use for all husbandry needs such as removing the snake, changing the water bowl, etc.. The other door is strictly used to introduce the prey item to the snake. After using this method I have noticed a vast difference in my snakes attitudes when I open the feed door compared to the other door. They quickly learn that they are getting fed one the one door is opened and that they get to play when the other is opened.
The other method is to use a snake hook religiously when removing your snake or when ever you enter his cage for non-feeding times. What this does is conditions the snake that when the hook is introduced in to the cage that he/she is not going to get fed and thus no feeding response. These two methods have worked extremely well for me over the years. Hope this helps. Todd

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