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Substrate Idea what do you think??

jack7777766 Dec 11, 2003 11:35 PM

I was thinking of when I used reptibark for my chilean dwarf tegu, and although it had drawbacks, I think it was pretty good.
But now Im thinking of using either reptibark and soil, or maybe do Robyns mix of 75/25/25 soil/sand/vermiculite. And then adding an extra 20% or so of reptibark.
I think the bigger size of the particles or pieces or reptibark compared to soil might add an advantage to it.

What do you guys think??

Jack
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0.1 Hypo-Tang Leopard Gecko
0.1 Tremper Albino Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Crested Geckos
0.0.1 CB Baby Saharan Uromastyx

Replies (6)

jack7777766 Dec 11, 2003 11:51 PM

It could also work by just putting the reptibark over the soil mix. This way on top the have the drier more arid surface and then they can dig under it to a moister layer, more like in the wild maybe???

Again what do you think??

Jack
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0.1 Hypo-Tang Leopard Gecko
0.1 Tremper Albino Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Crested Geckos
0.0.1 CB Baby Saharan Uromastyx

robyn@ProExotics Dec 12, 2003 12:43 PM

i get feedback all the time of folks taking the 50/25/25 mix, and then adding their own materials to it. cypress, bark, calci sand, bed a beast, what have you.

and then it becomes a substrate mix that doesn't work so well : )

the 50/25/25 mix works, because it does. it is like the existence of the Universe. you can't just say, i wish gravity was 8 times stronger, and expect everything to be the same

if it needed other ingredients, i would have listed those. it works as it is because it allows for the basics. digging, burrowing, and water retention. the "change" that you can make is your exact ratios. take the three ingedients, and add a litte, substract a little, so that the mix in your very hands is doing the right things.

but still folks insist on adding stuff : )

adding bark will break your bind. it won't dig as well, and it won't burrow as well. the vermeculite is there to add ADDITIONAL bind as it is. adding some large particle ingredient only works against that.

many folks like to add bed a beast. once again breaking the bind. bed a beast, for lack of a better description after climbing out of bed this morning, is too soft and fluffy. it will reduce the hold of your burrows. that's NOT what you want to do.

now, adding a layer of bark OVER everything else, that's an ok idea. with monitors, a lot of keepers add a layer of leaf litter, very successfully. i don't know WHY you would want to add a layer of bark, not sure what positive purpose it would serve, unless you just have a ton of it around and need to use it. but it shouldn't hurt the situation, and should react very little with "the mix". i think once the animal starts actually digging, the bark is going to be a mess, but you could pull it out at that point, or not add it at all.

ONCE AGAIN (for the general forum) you don't HAVE to use the soil substrate, not at all. i would love to see you try, but REALLY, you gotta kinda stay in the outline. it works in its own configuration. not just any dirt will do. you can't make a succesful soil substrate based cage by being lazy. you can't let the Home Depot guy talk you into using potting soil filled with all kinds of stuff, when you are there to get topsoil, sand and vermeculite. ("but he said potting soil was the same thing, it already HAD all that stuff" really?!? is he a lizard breeder? : )

REMEMBER! the store bought mix is the ALTERNATIVE! the best soil is going to be the one you dig yourself! not every soil will work, you STILL have to get out there and find that streambed, or forest, prairie dog town, or backyard with a good, workable soil

and good grief, don't give up after one week! i see that some folks have gotten frustrated, but the end result is WAY worth it. it is going to take a couple of months just for YOU to start learning about how the soil really works in the cage. all you can do in two weeks is get your fingernails dirty : )

better growth and better HEALTH is our (PE) result at this point, and this has been fedback by a few other forum members that have made the jump. all signs point to long term results along the same lines.

so you can achieve better health with a better setup. what is the opposite of that? well, the current accepted Uro standard and setup, which logically means POORER HEALTH. and as reptile lovers and hobbyists (this is not a "breeder only" goal) that should be amazingly important to us all.

i know i am new here, and i know there is a lot to absorb from what i am saying. and i know some "big names" have dismissed the ideas a bit (without investigation?) but still, Pro Exotics is a successful monitor breeder, a successful lizard breeder, and i AM looking at the Uros critically. i am not here after a ten year run in the cornsnake forum, now trying to tell you guys how to live life, that you're dumb, and i dreamt of a new way to keep "Uromatchstix", we have been through the trials and tribulations with the monitors, and i see only positive Uro feedback when i apply that same theory to the Uros. lizards lizards lizards, apply apply apply!

thanks for hanging in there, as always, i enjoy the feedback and exchange, and we continue to push forward for successful captive care and reproduction of the Uromastyx!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

jack7777766 Dec 13, 2003 05:51 AM

Yeah definitely makes sense what youre saying,
I dont know why I wanted to add bark over it, but it sure seemed like a good idea at 3:00AM that night LOL.
Anyway thanks for the heads up.

By the way do you have any experience with forest mix???

Jack
-----
0.1 Hypo-Tang Leopard Gecko
0.1 Tremper Albino Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Crested Geckos
0.0.1 CB Baby Saharan Uromastyx

robyn@ProExotics Dec 13, 2003 03:20 PM

at 3:00 am, LOTS of things sound good!

"forest mix" i am not necessarily familiar with. is it a garden store bought mulch? are you referring to Forest Floor by Zoo Med? that is a cypress product.

we have used Cypress Mulch for years and years, i like it a lot. we have used it for monitors, Gilas, boas, pythons, colubrids, just about every animal we have ever had at one time or another.

we still use it for snakes, but for breeder monitors, Gilas, and lizards, no more.

it is an okay product for lizards. and if you don't know any better, it is even "really nice". but once we started using a soil, for lizards, there was absolutely no turning back. the difference is night and day.

if a good diggable soil is 100% of what you want for your animal, the end all to be all "ultimate", i would say cypress is somewhere around 70%, maybe less. the funny thing is, a bad dirt, like straight topsoil or crappy potting soil, is even worse

seeing how much the animals enjoy the soil, seeing how they make use of it and REALLY thrive (and we thought they were thriving before!), you just can't go back to a cypress setup and feel good about it in your head or heart.

for example...

we have kept Gilas on soil for well over a year now (basic monitor, Gila, Uro setup). they love it. SOOOOO much better. but we had too many males. so i had to sell some of our surplus adult males. i really struggled with that because I KNEW that they were going back to a substandard setup, a cool cage with crappy temperatures, newspaper, aspen, or cypress substrate, and just overall misdirected care. it isn't really the new keeper's fault, it is just ignorance of the possibilities.

the point is that i hated to send them off to a home that was going to be so much less appropriate for them, it really broke my heart.

i couldn't imagine at this point trying to set up monitors on cypress for the long term, because i have seen what is possible with soil, and how much happier the animals have been.

so using "forest mix", probably not a good idea. especially for the Uros, as it doesn't really accomplish much for them, doesn't serve any "tool" purpose for them, ya know?
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

robyn@ProExotics Dec 13, 2003 03:23 PM

we don't work with leopard geckos anymore, but i see you do, and i would TOTALLY set them up the same friggin way, no question! i would love to see their burrowing capabilities, but even in a traditional sweater box for breeding, i would go with an inch of soil over the standard newspaper, and see what opened up in behavior, health, and overall thriving. i think there are some strong possibilities for those guys, i have just never talked with anyone about leopard gecko specifics and this train of thought...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

jack7777766 Dec 13, 2003 06:47 PM

I have been thinking of redoing my cages for all myherps,
I plan on putting them all in bigger better cages. Im not only redoing my cage for my saharan, but for my leo's and crested too. Ive been thinking of setting them up all better for awhile but wont be able to do it till about mid january, I have ALLOT of stuff going on, but by mid january I will be modifying all their setups for the better.

Ive spent allot of time looking fopr new herps to keep and what not, but I promised myself that its not how many but the quality , I want to keep them all in optimum conditions before I move on .

Jack
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0.1 Hypo-Tang Leopard Gecko
0.1 Tremper Albino Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Hypo Tang Leopard Gecko
1.0 Crested Geckos
0.0.1 CB Baby Saharan Uromastyx

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