Reptile & Amphibian Forums

r parasite meds from pet sotres reliable?

flagyl panacure and albon are the most popular. the others are not meds. they are herbal or natural products to help eliminate parasites like para-zap. I have had mixed results but there are those that swear by it.
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Cant you get panacure online though? I know I have seen it on a few reptile supply sites. Unless it may be something different than the stuff prescribed by vets.
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~Melissa~
1.3 Leopard geckos (Guido, Oasis, Gypsy, Marli)
1.0 Bearded dragon (Pharoah)
1.0 Hog Island Boa (Michelangelo)
0.0.1 Crested Gecko (Picasso)
1.0 Ferret (da Vinci)
0.1 Chinchilla (Eevie)
1.0 Chinese Praying Mantis (Sid)

Melissas Menagerie

I really don't rec. "playing" veterinarian. Beardies are very small and even a small miscalculation in dose can cause a major overdose (and you will not find reptile doses on the bottle).

Unethical companies do sell Rx medication like Pancur (fenbendazole), Albon (Trimethoprim sulfa), and Flagyl (metronidazole)online, but it is just that unethical and in my opinion dangerous. You need a veterinarian to diagnosis what type of parasites your dragon has so they can appropriately treat your pet. Pick up a sample of fecal material and make an appointment today. Go to www.arav.org (see link) to find a herp vet near you if you do not already have one.
Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians

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Stacey

Panacure and Safeguard de-wormers are safe to use without being a vet. A de-worming regiment is usually recommend by many breeders and can be done by a person other than a vet. We do recommend that pet owners allow the first attempt to de-worm their dragon be done by a vet professional that way you can be educated and shown how to administer this worming paste yourself and know the dosaging for future applications. This is an important part of the preventative maintainence program to keep your bearded dragons living a long and happy life. We use fenbendazole on all of our dragons 8 months old and older keeping to a quarterly routine. It is very simple to administer the worming paste once you have been shown.
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www.georgiabeardeddragons.com

Yes, but you are a breeder with alot of experience there are many average pet owners reading his forum. I also deworm my own dragons and other medications, but I am a vet tech. The average owner is not equiped to recognize problems like we are. I still stand by my recommendation that they should be taken to the vet. I rec. annual examinations anyway for all reptiles so just have it done then. Of course, Dr. Doug Mader thinks we are all deworming our reptiles too often and should only deworm when a parasitic load is observed on fecal examination.

The risks of overdose, aspiration, tracheal perforation (if using a gavage tube) are in my opinion too high with your average pet owner. Breeding situatuions are different as are breeders. They have more dragons to deal with and much more expertise than a pet owner. Again, just my two cents.
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Stacey

I strongly agree that many animals are being overmedicated and wormed for no good reason at all. It is harmfull in the longrun to medicate an animal that does not need it. The other day on Animal Planet, a vet was brought an aligator that had eaten a hot dog. It had a reaction and blew up like a balloon. So what did the vet do? Yep... he wormed the gator. Why? did the hotdog have coccidia?

For those that do decide to worm their animals, it is also a good idea to provide a probiotic and in some cases extra hydration.

Just my opinion
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

Panacure is a brand name of a de-wormer that contains fenbendizole. I assume you are wanting to use a de-wormer on your dragons. You can purchase Panacure and another de-wormer Safeguard brand that also contains fenbendizole at your local feed stores. Panacure and Safeguard are both equine de-wormers and come in a ready to use single application for horses and other large animals. You can use this on our bearded dragons as in preventative measures to periodically (I use quarterly) worm your dragons. You will need to check with your vet so he/she can instruct you on proper dosaging but once you get that down and know how to administer the wormer paste then you will be able to do it on your own setting yourself a schedule to follow.

Hope this helps.
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www.georgiabeardeddragons.com

quarterly to the point you have to treat them, or you are just shotgunning them "in case".

Treating any animals without knowing the need is there and their health is compormised can be just as dangerous as not treating them when they do need it. It's one of the reason we think that bearded draogons immune systems have declined so much and accounts for the weaker babies that are more common in the US today than just a few years ago.

Many experts now advocate not treating routine parasites and worms unless you are seeing a health problem with the dragons, they need to develop the t-cells to make their own strong immune systems for the future.

Steve Grenard, author of "a Happy Healthy Pet" feels that baby dragons since they hatch and are not suckled by parents or cared for where they remain in close contact, do not have the normal bacterial and parasites they would pick up from parents. These are needed to aid in digestion of plant matter, which is a fermentation process. They need to acquire those by ingestion contaminated soil from other dragons, also from crickets and in the wild flying insects. He feels that the dragons own immune system develops to control these amounts by forming t-cells and other antibodies when the dragons ingest them. That we may be harming the development of the dragons ability to form those healthy immune systems and lead to other complications later on. This is what the majority of Doctors, researchers and long time owners feel.

There is another article I did on parasites and worms being beneficial that quotes studies done by universities and research groups if you want to read it.

Intestinal Parasites/Worms May Prove Beneficial

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www.reptilerooms.com

I know I'll probably catch a little heat for this, but I strongly agree with Cheri & Bennett. Dragons in general are much overmedicated. Everyone seems persistant on erradicating coccidia & worms completely. If you take any wild dragon and examine a stool sample they are loaded with these parasites, yet as a whole the dragon population still goes on. If an animal has worms I believe this parasite should be taken care of because of the closed quarters of a captive enviroment, but coccidia is something different all together. Coccidia occurs naturally in dragons in managable amounts to aid in the digestion of plant matter. Obviously conditions are different for captive animals but I don't feel that just because a fecal sample comes up positive that the animal should be medicated. The level of coccidia occuring in the animal should be the deciding factor in whether or not to medicate, not just the presence of it. As everyone here seems to realize, a lot of times the medication can be more harmful than the parasites themselves. I truly believe the animal should not be medicated unless they are overloaded and are showing abdnormal behavior (ie:weight loss, lethargy). One alternative is to quarantine the animal and eliminate stress as much as possible. In this situation an animal should be able to recover and control parasite count on his own. Let it be noted that this may takes months, but I believe it is a much healthier alternative. Another problem with consistent medicating for these parasites is immunity to the meds themselves over generations, just as overused antibiotic are beginning not work on certain ailments in humans due to their overuse. If the cages are kept clean and all their parameters for care are met the animals can usually manage these parasites on their own. I still believe it's a good idea to have a fecal done on any new animal because the stress of a new environment can lower the immune system and cause small amounts of these parasites to multiply and become a problem.
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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retial Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

I will third or fourth all of this! I used to routinely deworm all of my lizards as well--every 6 months as a "preventative"--this is what was taught to me by vets and other keepers years ago. However, as of recently, through experience and more research being done, a lot of people are changing their tune about medicating reptiles. I now no longer medicate a dragon unless it is showing adverse signs of parasite problems (ie weight loss, lack of appetite, etc). Especially young dragons--if it is eating and growing, leave the poor thing alone! Yes to all of the reasons above--stripping of the system, immunity issues, etc etc. Treat the stress if the fecal comes up positive before shotgunning meds--I like Cheri's article on addressing husbandry issues to manage parasites. Like Paul said, dragons are really good at managing levels on their own if given the proper environment. The only thing I'd suggest slightly different is to quarantine any new dragon, but maybe save the fecal for a little down the road. Since the stress of the new situation can cause levels of parasites to rise, maybe wait until stress recedes a bit before checking levels to get a more accurate reading.

It is ironic, raising mali uromastyx, we were taught just the opposite. It used to be thought that if you did not feed captive bred babies their mom's fecal matter that they would die. This was to give the babies intestinal flora.

I also like the idea of parazap instead of the meds in case some help is needed. I realize that these types of treatments have not been around long enough to test thoroughly, but I can see a big difference just in observation. Dragons given meds tend to show dull color, sometimes lose appetite, and seem generally unhappy during the time that the meds are in the system. On the other hand, dragons given parazap seem to have increased appetite and activity. Again, this is just a novice observation, but it makes me lean in that direction.

A lot of this we really have to teach our vets. It is difficult for vets to keep up on all of the latest info and research, especially on reptiles.

my 2 cents
dana

I think you are absolutely correct, we are over deworming our herps. Like I said before Mader's study proved that there are many commensal protozoan flora in beardies that are a part of a healthy digestive tract. These commensals can become opportunistic infections if the host becomes debilitated, ill ,or stressed this is one of the reasons veterinarians often deworm imperically when a dragon comes in for treatment for other ailments.
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Stacey

Thank you sooooooo much for backing me up. I really thought that I would get some negative feedback on my opinion.
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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retial Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

and have some studies going regarding parasites in bearded dragons and all try to share what we learn as we learn it. At I.C.E. and the ARAV conference, this was a topic of discussion and AVAR has funded some studies with bearded dragons and other lizard species. That and other studies back up what you say and I agree absolutly

Due to the increasing popularity of them and emerging problems(sadly that also includes poor breeders that create them with overmedication and Vets that prescribe them) , more studies are planned or in the beginning stages.

Next month we should know if another researchers project with bearded dragons and fungus disease makes the cut for funding from another foundation.

This is a pretty good group here, most dedicated to getting dragons back to the heartiness they use to have and understanding why they have weakened so much in the last few years... we think much of that is due to not only inbreeding with a small gene pool(many times by breeders that do not know if their dragons are related or not), but also over-medicating and the increase in pet stores carrying too young babies to deal with the stress.

Hopefully as we learn more, some of that can be used to make them have a better chance of survival those first few fragile months when they do stress and that is usually when they have the most problems and end up being treated.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Paul, I was wondering if there is any way to examine a stool sample at home? I have had fecal tests performed on a small group of dragons I recently acquired from a top breeder and my vet was amazed at the high level of coccidia.I am treating the group now but I have quite a few other dragons from the same breeder and other breeders and it would cost a fortune to test all of my collection (over 40 dragons ). It is costing me 15$ for each test. I am using Apo-Sulfatrim to treat the dragons that I had tested so far and I will have a post fecal test done after. I have heard of breeders treating their entire collection periodically but after reading you post I feel that it might do more harm than good.

I feel that if there was a way to test for coccidian on site I might save a lot of money and be able to closely monitor the levels. I have invested so much in my passion. I want to do all I can to ensure their well being.

Tim Daly,
Ottawa, Canada
tdalyn215@rogers.com