Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a big cage for an adult male and female. It's 7'long by 4'wide by 4'high with big rocks, sand, logs, etc. Half is sand and half is aspen shavings. On the side at the bottom I cut a 4" hole with a piece of pvc pipe about a foot long (for a tunnel) that goes to a 4' x 2' box. The box is only about 4 inches high to simulate a borough. I keep a small amount of soil and sand mixture in the "borough box" for humidity. Do you think that this would be a good alternative to having a couple feet of the soil, sand mixture in the entire cage? That would be hard to do considering the size of my cage. Thanks for your input.

glad to see you brainstorming, but no, it is not nearly the same : )

the "PVC tube to a box" idea is nothing new, folks have tinkered with that for years. i tried it years ago for Gilas. it just seemed dumb, and a rickety way to accomplish what i wanted. of course, it took a us good four years to get over it and find the better way : ) (we only used the PVC tube setup for a season, then scrapped it for just a simple setup cage, it was many years later that we said, "dirt, duh!"

you have to decide what you are trying to do. a burrow is a burrow, plain and simple. a 4 inch box isn't a burrow, it is another box, or hide spot. but not a burrow. the Uro knows this. there isn't enough substrate in the box to even dig a burrow, so you won't "fool" the animal with it : )

i would say you need a bare MINIMUM of 8 inches of substrate for a small lizard to make a usable burrow. like i said, even at 2 ft, the lizards all still go right to the bottom, i wish i could make it 8 ft deep, and see what really happens!

so maybe your box is an extra hide box, or a lay box, but it isn't a burrow at all. if that is the way you keep it, that is fine, but treat the box like a box, not a burrow, because that is how the Uro will treat it, ya know?
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

for Rik's setup, and others who "can only" do a thin substrate...

even an inch of a good soil is better than these super dry substrates like aspen or playsand. even a thin layer of good soil addresses more needs for the Uros than something completely foreign to them like playsand or aspen (or carefresh, or astroturf, or newspaper, whatever).

better sheds, better moisture content overall, etc, consider trying the "baby step" of just a thin layer of nice soil. use the same soil mix or a good burrowable soil for your thin layer. everything still applies except for the depth. not just any ole dirt will do, you still want good moisture content, you still want fantastic temperatures, you may still need to restrict venting and airflow to prevent aggressive moisture loss, all the goals of a deep diggable substrate apply except for the actual depth. (meaning you can't just throw your Grandma's plant dirt in the bottom of your cage and say "There! Now be happy Uro!" invariably followed by "Robyn, you are a booger headed dimwit, and your substrate idea sucks!"

not every dirt will do! (and two booger references in one thread, nice! : )

another possibility is to consider a substrate dam (for those with a front loading cage, with only a short lip, like a Vision cage).

an 8 inch high piece of wood, or plastic, that goes completely across the front, will allow you to run a deeper substrate. it is messier, because the animals will often kick dirt around, and it may fall in the narrow gap in front of the dam. but it is an adaptation you can make that does allow you to experiment with SOME substrate depth.

for Rik, you have a large cage, which is nice, so if it is front opening, perhaps that is an option...

oh, and another note for Rik, on the PVC box option, i forgot to mention one other hangup for that. as azteclizard was pushing towards, the setup works together as a package. the temps and gradients are just as important as everything else (probably most important, i would rather have great temps and poor substrate, than poor temps and great substrate), so simply having a box on the side with some dirt (even good dirt) is not the same because the animal doesn't have the same access to the temp gradient in the little box. in our setups, there are burrows in the basking area, burrows in the cooler area, burrows that are dug (by the Uros themselves) according to specific temperature need, and that ability is severely limited by placing a small amount of dirt on the side away from the actual temperature controlled areas.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Thanks Robyn for the input. I have decided to remove the so-called "borough box" and raise the cage a couple feet off the floor and put a 4 foot addition on to the side with the soil mixture. that would give them an area of 4' wide by 4' long by about 2' deep to borough in. Get rid of the sand and aspen and put about 6 inches of the mixture on the floor. This is about the only way I can do it.

nice thinking "outside the box", so to speak

i can't exactly visualize your setup and your addition, so keep the temperature gradient thing in mind when putting it together. at the very least, set up a heat pad or heat tape so that the dirt has a gradient, or consider adding a basking light setup in that box as well (better).

the soil itself is just one tool of many that make it workable. by itself it is useless. the other tools include (but are not limited to : ) heat and moisture.

best of luck, and i look forward to more updates on your progress!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

This is a forum and we shall exchange experiences.OK, mine are different from Robins.
For me the tubing/hide box system works very very well. I use it for Uros and jJewelled lacertas.
For Uros its quite important that you initially fill the whole system with sand to allow the animals to dig them out themselves. A thin concrete coating ofd the inner side of the tubes also makes sense and helps the Uros to find their way through, but its not a must.
But its a must to offer more than one tunnel/Box, to give them the choice. Also they prefer longer tunnels over short ones.
My Uros do not dig anymore. Each individual has selected its own tunnel. There are extra tunnels for egg laying and and if the Uros want a more humid place.
They in fact use these for egg laying, shedding and hibernation.
Im very happy with this solution and cen greatly recommend it.
An yes, I have experimented with literally tons of diggable substrate.
All nice -but dirty- but: How can you control an Uro -or even just humidity- at the end of a 3 ft self digged tunnel and how can you safe eggs from there?

Thats MY experience.
Its just true, that people do have different opinions and experiences.

Ci@o

Ingo

thanks for your posts and feedback Ingo. i had meant to reply to some of yours before, but got distracted, and never got back to it, sorry. i appreciate the feedback though!

it sounds like your setup is working pretty well for you. i am glad to hear it : )

to specifically address how to manage and care for an animal at the end of a 3ft long burrow, it isn't really hard at all.

that is because the Uros are SMARTER than we are. they instinctively know about soil and burrows, temperatures and humidity, much more than we are able to learn, even with years of study and experience.

i have seen the same results in our short time with Uros, but let me relate it in monitor experience...

very simply, they don't burrow in bad spots. that is why it is so important to use a RECOGNIZABLE soil, and a proper temp gradient. it isn't about whether you (the keeper) thinks the substrate is good, the URO must think so!

if the soil is at a poor moisture level, either too high or too low, the animals either won't burrow, or will put little effort into it. they know that it is wasted effort. so we have to learn to maintain the moisture levels at a point that works well for the lizard, one that it recognizes as useful and healthy.

same with temps. if the soil is either too hot or too cold, there is simply no point in burrowing into it, because the end result is unusable.

in our setups, the soil temperature covers a nice range. right near the heat tape, the soil is well into the 90's (F). as you move away from the heat tape, it drops in temperature, typically into the 70's.

now the amazing part is that the animals will burrow to the temperature they are looking for! there is no instance where they are hiding in a burrow that is entirely too hot for them! that is because as the heat increases, they simply burrow away from it to a more acceptable zone.

this is best illustrated by placement of eggs. Ackie monitor eggs incubate at 86 degrees. Ackies never lay the eggs in spots that are too cold or too hot, always right at 85-87.

Blackthroat monitor eggs, on the other hand, need to incubate at a cooler temp in the lower 80's, and sure enough, that is where they lay their eggs as well.

the lizards are able to read the temps of the soil with great precision, and the make their burrows to fit their needs, most specifically, temperature wise.

i am very interested to see the temp that Uros lay at. i have read a number of different reports that say incubation is anywhere from mid 80's to mid 90's. i expect the Uros themselves to really tell us the correct temperature, and that will be by temping out the spot where they lay the eggs

as for digging up the eggs, it is challenging the first couple of times, because the animals back fill the burrow, so the eggs are literally buried. but once you understand what is happening, it is pretty easy to follow the former burrow down to the eggs. a lot of the Ackies lay in the same spot again and again as well, and i believe that is because that is a great temperature and humidity balance for the clutch. realize that as far as the animals are concerned, the spot they lay the eggs is the spot the eggs will hatch, they are not relying on some goofy human to come in and steal the eggs away for incubation.

and that is where many keepers fail with eggs. because without the proper nesting environment, the lizards will not develop the eggs properly (what's the use?) or they will hang on to them too long (waiting for the proper conditions to come up) and by the time they dump them, it is too late, and all the eggs are bad, or a good portion of the clutch is bad. but that is a whole nother topic
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Dear Robin,

thats all very true.
The only problem I see with that is that we are talking to Uro keepers, who mainly keep their animals in 55 to 150 g tanks. To my experience, Uros normally have to test several places to burrow and even in my tank with more than 6 x 5 ft floor space, the tank looked horrible in that time and I doubt they easily find THE perfect place in small tanks. Also there are occasions, where you want to check your Uro, want to control if left over skin is still harmless or due to wounds or infections, look for signs of gravidity and the like. Less tame specimens always quickly vanish in their burrows and there you stand.
I very much favour big naturalistically furnished tanks -see example pic of my basilisk tank- but I know that not every herper is willind or able to significantly exceed tha 55-150g range for his Uros and I appreciate the ease of controllign the animals in the hide boxes. Again I want to stress the imnportance of the initial sand filling. This gives the Uro the impression to dig itself and in my hands ends with non extra digging Uros which fully accept the artificial burrows. Even for a small tank of 100g , its relatively easy to add 3-5 extensions once you managed to drill the holes into the tank sides. So you can offer a variety of tmeps and humidiites. Do not forget that you are an expereinced expert. But for many Uro keepers out there there still is much confusion about optimal humidity of Uro resting places. So for most it would not be easy to provide an apt gradient in a normal size tank, but its easier to test several variants in seoperated boxes.
Thats my 2 cts

and again-I very much appreciate that finally someone who is heard by the communitiy speaks in favour of natural substrates and furniture. Thats definitely the way to go and if people look over the atlantic , they might see that in our european tanks all that natural stuff does not cause evil things. And maybe som have even heard that german herpers are not too unsuccessful with breeding and maintaining sensitive species. But thats just a sidenote -Unless you have a tank significantly exceeding the sizes of my Uro tank, I think its everything but easy to solve the well known problems just by a deep layer of diggable substrate

Ci@o

Ingo

That dirt is heavy!
When I tried to fill my big Uro tank with enough substrate to allow natural tunnelling, I carried almost 750 kg (three stairs) and then stopped because I worried about the stability of my house. And still the substrate layer was not as high as I had planned.