Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Right now I have two burms, both babies that are in 30 gallon aquariums. They both have the exact same type of setup with hideplaces, substrate, heating etc. Both of my burms are acting retarded. On one end of the cage, i had a hide rock under a 75 watt heat lamp(92 degrees). On the other end, i had a hide rock with a heat pad under it. The burms never moved from under the hide rock over the heat pad. I picked them up and they were way too hot. I then realized that my temps were to high so i decided to remove the pad. And i heard that this should be perfect so the snakes could thermoregulate, going from the hot hide spot, to the cold one. So i left the heat pad off for one day, and the burms still didnt move! I picked them up from under their hide spots, and they were freezzzing. Why wouldnt they move to the other end of the cage with the heat lamp???? I dont know what else to do i have tried so much and have spent ver $50 just to get a variety of hide spots to see how they worked and they still didnt move. WHY? They eat 3-4 times a week and seem perfectly healthy. I just dont understand.

It sounds to me that these burmese are probably stressed out and they choose to remain hidden regardless of their body's temperature. To them, in their stressed out condition, safety is taking precidence over comfort.

Don't worry, they'll come around. Don't hesitate to post on here to learn whatever you need to learn to best care for these guys. There are a lot of helpful people in here more than willing to share their time, knowledge and experience with you.

>>Right now I have two burms, both babies that are in 30 gallon aquariums. They both have the exact same type of setup with hideplaces, substrate, heating etc. Both of my burms are acting retarded. On one end of the cage, i had a hide rock under a 75 watt heat lamp(92 degrees). On the other end, i had a hide rock with a heat pad under it. The burms never moved from under the hide rock over the heat pad. I picked them up and they were way too hot. I then realized that my temps were to high so i decided to remove the pad. And i heard that this should be perfect so the snakes could thermoregulate, going from the hot hide spot, to the cold one. So i left the heat pad off for one day, and the burms still didnt move! I picked them up from under their hide spots, and they were freezzzing. Why wouldnt they move to the other end of the cage with the heat lamp???? I dont know what else to do i have tried so much and have spent ver $50 just to get a variety of hide spots to see how they worked and they still didnt move. WHY? They eat 3-4 times a week and seem perfectly healthy. I just dont understand.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

So your saying that letting them stay in these extreme hot and cold places at their own will is ok, and if they really need to move they will? Im getting a vision 622 for xmas. SOOOO excited. Supposed to be here in about a week. Cant wait to get em out of the aquarium. The only thing im not sure of is when i get the vision how im goign to go about heating it. I want it to be perfect. I know someone is going to recommend pro panel radient heat whatever and helix $200 thermostat etc. I was wondering if there is a simpler cheaper way. Such as the cobra heat pads or Zoo Med heat pads available at Petco, hooked up to a big apple thermostat for $35(been keeping my eye on it) Also another quick question, everyone says they use thermostats etc, well how do you get the probe from the thermostat into the cage? Wouldnt you have to like drill a hole or something?, and supposed i did have one in the cage, how can it control the temperature of a heat mat, if the heat mat directs heat onto the cage floor and not the air?

No, not at all am I suggesting that. I was merely explaining why I thought the snake may be doing what it is doing. Or in this case,. not doing. I certainly reccomend plugging any of your heat sources into a reliable thermostat and setting it to a more idealic temperature. Yes, you may have to drill a small 1/4 inch hole to run your remote sensing probe, but this is a small price to pay for getting the environment right. Just take your time, go slowly and focus on getting the temps approximately within a reasonable range between 80 and 90. In my opinion there does not have to be an exacting "thermal gradient". I think sometimes people just like to say the words or something to sound more important. Approximate temps are fine.

I apologize for the other guy's response. Normally he is a very nice and helpful guy with loads of patience and a fairly wide array of knowledge. I think he was maybe just upset about another matter and perhaps took out a little of his anger on you. Don't take it personal. I know I certainly take any such outbursts with a grain of salt.

>>So your saying that letting them stay in these extreme hot and cold places at their own will is ok, and if they really need to move they will? Im getting a vision 622 for xmas. SOOOO excited. Supposed to be here in about a week. Cant wait to get em out of the aquarium. The only thing im not sure of is when i get the vision how im goign to go about heating it. I want it to be perfect. I know someone is going to recommend pro panel radient heat whatever and helix $200 thermostat etc. I was wondering if there is a simpler cheaper way. Such as the cobra heat pads or Zoo Med heat pads available at Petco, hooked up to a big apple thermostat for $35(been keeping my eye on it) Also another quick question, everyone says they use thermostats etc, well how do you get the probe from the thermostat into the cage? Wouldnt you have to like drill a hole or something?, and supposed i did have one in the cage, how can it control the temperature of a heat mat, if the heat mat directs heat onto the cage floor and not the air?
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Those comments are pretty offending to me since my wildlife center does a lot of work with special populations. The snake isn't "retarded", only the inept owners when they make those types of comments. Remember, burms like all wild snakes are hardwired to do certain things. They are genetically programmed to do certain things. When you look at the environment that this species comes from, they are not normally exposed to such cold temperatures and as such, don't know how to react to it. So, it is the owner's fault for not providing the proper thermal gradient (which means that the coldest those temps should ever get is in the upper 70's/low 80's). Take a close look at your set up and make the necessary corrections. Don't take this too personally, I just tend to say things like they are.

I have a vision to. I have the four foot one for my boa. I use a 50 watt bulb on one side and the other side I use the cobra heat pad. The Temp on the heat pad gets up there 100 degrees if there is nothing over it. (The heat pad is stuck to the bottom of the vision cage on the outside, and I bought tile from home depot to put between the stand and the cage, so the pad is not right on the stand) I have heard people putting them on the side of the tanks as well. The temps of my vision are perfect under the light 90-95 degrees, towards the front 85 degrees. I heard someone in here once, say burms love belly heat and after my burm eats always goes to her heat pad. I also tape up 3/4 of the back of the vision cage with that plastic glass cover people use for there windows in the winter. Just and Idea

>>I have a vision to. I have the four foot one for my boa. I use a 50 watt bulb on one side and the other side I use the cobra heat pad. The Temp on the heat pad gets up there 100 degrees if there is nothing over it. (The heat pad is stuck to the bottom of the vision cage on the outside, and I bought tile from home depot to put between the stand and the cage, so the pad is not right on the stand) I have heard people putting them on the side of the tanks as well. The temps of my vision are perfect under the light 90-95 degrees, towards the front 85 degrees. I heard someone in here once, say burms love belly heat and after my burm eats always goes to her heat pad. I also tape up 3/4 of the back of the vision cage with that plastic glass cover people use for there windows in the winter. Just and Idea
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

N/P

so a 75 watt buld at the right end, nothing in the middle, and a cobra heat pad on the other end? You said about 90-95 on the right side with the bulb, 80-85 in the middle and 100 on the left side? Thats basically what i have now, except i have a zoo med heat pad on the left end of the cage, but pretty much the same exact temps. I was told this was too hot so i took out the heat pad, and have been switching it on back and forth until i decide that to do. Where are your hide spots located in the cage?(right,left,middle,all 3?)

I think thats perfect, you give your little guy lots of places to go and change temps. The hide spots I had this plastic branch thing that looked like the bottom of a tree under the light side and then I bought an iglo looking thing for the front corner of it these where both bought at Petsmart. After she started eating reg and got around 4ft I took everything out of the burm cage, and my boa as well. The burm just moves around from one side to another, she is now almost 7ft. But there was a time when she was a baby she never left under the tree thing. Then one day she stayed in the water bowl, and was freezing, so I took her out that day. That is when she had issues, would not eat. But You can also use News Paper in the vision cage and that way if it wants to hide it can hide anywhere. Lay a good layer down and then put some pages over the top. I like the news paper now. Some people beleive in no hiding spots, and they do fine. Just got to try things. If she eats fine and acts fine then you dont need to add anything, but its what you want.

Go easy there man, you can instruct without being so harsh. And besides, I think a lot of what you said here is inaccurate. You really honestly believe that the temps all throughout the ranges where burmese are indigenous to never drop below the upper 70's? I am not a geographical expert, but I'd wager that there are certainly extreme temps that burmese have to cope with in the wild that are outside of the 79 to 94 degree range so often suggested as the end all-be all perfect gradient. So I totally doubt that it is just that the snake "doesn't know how to react to it" lol. Besides, he never said in his post exactly what temps the snake was at. You assumed that they were below the ideal low temps. Maybe the snake just felt cold to the touch which can be the case even when they are in the mid 80's.

Why don't you try instructing this guy without too much criticism. And find out more facts before going off the deep end and assuming that the snake is freezing.

>>Those comments are pretty offending to me since my wildlife center does a lot of work with special populations. The snake isn't "retarded", only the inept owners when they make those types of comments. Remember, burms like all wild snakes are hardwired to do certain things. They are genetically programmed to do certain things. When you look at the environment that this species comes from, they are not normally exposed to such cold temperatures and as such, don't know how to react to it. So, it is the owner's fault for not providing the proper thermal gradient (which means that the coldest those temps should ever get is in the upper 70's/low 80's). Take a close look at your set up and make the necessary corrections. Don't take this too personally, I just tend to say things like they are.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

What's the point of being so unpleasant to the guy? He never did state what the cool temperatures in the cage were. My snakes do that sometimes, too. I call 'em retarded, too. No big deal. There's no point in jumping all over the guy. That's not going to do any good at all.

No, Brian, I didn't wake up on the wrong side of the bed (actually, I had a great night's sleep). I just took offense to how he or she used the word "Retarded" and felt that it was a poor choice of words. In terms of ideal temps, ABSOLUTELY, there are great temp variances in Myanmar and other areas where burms are found....BUT, THAT IS THE THEIR NATURAL ELEMENT...THERE IS NO WAY IN HECK YOU CAN COMPARE THE NATURAL ELEMENTS TO A CAPTIVE ENVIRONMENT. THere is no way we will ever be able to re-create those natural conditions so we just do the best we can in a captive setting. Most people probably shouldn't own burms because they just don't know how to give them the proper care. They don't put forth the appropriate resources to give these animals the proper set up, thermastically controlled heat, proper humidity levels, etc. (yes, this is a bit of a rant because I deal with MANY irresponsible owners each year). But, with that being said, let me restate my response:

"Dear Cito,

That is a wonderful post. If possible, next time, could you use a different word than "retarded"? I would really appreciate that and thanks so much for listening to this. That would be, well, gosh, really great of you. And, you know, those temps just seem a little bit cool. Have you tried using a really good thermostat to check those temps? I think you might find that they are a little cool. Maybe your snake just needs a little hug from you. " Your internet friend, Rob

How's that Brian? Better?

Come on folks, lets be honest, this is an open forum and if anyone took offense to my comments they had better get a grip on themselves. As a professional (who is learning something EVERY day...even on forums like this) it is my responsibility to speak up and if I seem a little harsh at times, well, that is just the way I am (and I don't feel I am being disrespectful in the least....look at the 100's of posts I have made that truly makes a positive contribution...this doesn't include the 100's of posts I receive from people who read this forum and others inquiring my advice). Anyway, life goes on.

The "PC" version was a hoot!
Have a good one!
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

I am trying to "provide" my burm with the best I can, and becuase I cant do it perfectly, I came on here to ask others for their ideas and suggestions to better provide for my burm, and instead I get replies like yours. Do you think that makes me want to continue posting when I come up with future problems?, Or not post and try and solve the problem out on my own, with a solution that might not always be correct. I thought I could learn from you older and more experienced people but instead I get taunted and lectured about how I dont provide for my animals, like a kindergartener might do.

I beleive Rob was trying to get the point across about using the word retarded loosely.
He works with kids/adults with special needs. It seems the point was missed by most especially Robert6656. It may not be a big deal to you Robert until you have a family member that visits Rob for learning experiences. Forbid you have a child with special needs then maybe you'll see why "tact" (: a keen sense of what to do or say in order to maintain good relations with others or avoid offense)is warranted.
His comments about Cito's temps weren't even harsh. I mean you guys are real sesitive about Citos feeling regarding what temps to keep a snake and yet not about other humans, ironic..

Cito, if Rob's comments make you not want to post then that's your choice. Just try to get thicker skin and choose your words wisely and you should be ok..
I know long but apparently needed..

You echoed my feelings perfectly. I am professional herpetologist who just happens to be blessed having a job that I look forward to going to every day (directing a wildlife center that specializes in herps and raptors). I am a very upfront person and have no problem saying it like it is (I also have VERY thick skin). When people make ludicrous posts like this one, it is my right to respond (and rather directly). I took great offense at how he/she used the word "retarded". And, in terms of temps, that is precisely why so many captive burms get sick; most (and I will repeat, MOST) folks really don't have a clue how to give them the proper care.

n/p

I think it's curious that his point was telling people to get "thicker skin", when what is he [bleep]ing about? The use of the word "retarded". Big freaking deal. I think his point is something he himself is missing. His complains about that, yet gets all offended and huffy when someone else says perhaps he could be more pleasant. What good has it done for him to be so rude to this guy? Has it done any? No. So why do it? If that's the way he is, then great. You go, Rob. But now, when this guy has some questions, he may not come here to ask them, because then he'll just get treated like sh!t, so in the end, it's his animal that may suffer because some one decided to be a prick to him. So perhaps you should think about that.

It's fantastic that Rob's been in the business for 326 years. Big whoop. That doesn't give him the right to treat someone like [bleep] just because he has a question.

Cito and Robert6656 are the same person. lol.

Feeding a snake like a burmese 3-4 times a week is absolutely outragous. No wonder it never moves, it is constantly putting all of its energy into digesting its food.

Cito, If that wasn't a typo then I completly agree with the above post. I feed my Burms heavily so I can get them ready to breed next year and I still only feed them twice a week(every monday and friday). If you are feeding 3-4 times a week then your snake doesn't have the excess energy to move about and find a location more comfortable. All his energy is used to constantly digest. If you are not planning to breed your snake then a mantenance diet of once every 5-7 days will be plenty sufficient and you will probably see a more active alert burm. Try this and let us know, Todd

I feel so ashamed of some of you. This forum is to educate and help people, to ask questions etc...

This thread has over 20 posts, and not one states the obvious, apart from myself, followed up by Tod. This should have been the very first message put out.

Overfeeding, especially in large pythons is such a common misconception and a deadly habit. As Tod said, he knows he is power feeding his burmese, and he is doing it twice a week to gain a year on breeding. I would suggest that young burmese be fed once a week, and as they age a meal every 10 days, 2 weeks, and finally an adult male every 3 weeks.

If you continue a regime of 3-4 times a week feeding, I doubt the snake will live for more than 2 years old, probably less.

This advice should have been available in the first message, and I am not directing my anger at you completely, more to the other guys who are supposed to be helping.

I am quite disgusted and I only hope that you will follow my advice on feeding, regardless of what any other 'wise guy' says to you.

Reptileheavan is so correct. Cito, I do apologize. I got so wrapped up in the arguement(debate) that I honastly forget the main points of the original question that you asked. This is a wonderfull place to gain knowledge but it will only work when the experienced herpers can set aside the differences long enough to give out helpfull hints. I have kept many herps for the last 16 years and I would have killed to have access to something like this back then. So much information is available that wasn't back when I started this hobby. Then you basically learned by trial and error. Well It is important for all of us that have learned some of the things to calmly and rationally assist the new herpers and even the seasoned ones when they ask for help. Once again Cito, I am sorry for getting sidetracked and not responding to your question. Todd

Reptileheavan is so correct. Cito, I do apologize. I got so wrapped up in the arguement(debate) that I honastly forget the main points of the original question that you asked. This is a wonderfull place to gain knowledge but it will only work when the experienced herpers can set aside the differences long enough to give out helpfull hints. I have kept many herps for the last 16 years and I would have killed to have access to something like this back then. So much information is available that wasn't back when I started this hobby. Then you basically learned by trial and error. Well It is important for all of us that have learned some of the things to calmly and rationally assist the new herpers and even the seasoned ones when they ask for help. Once again Cito, I am sorry for getting sidetracked and not responding to your question. Todd

NP

It takes a lot of nerve to make statements like these here in a seemingly blanket accusation aimed at all involved, and I resent it. You make it sound here like we either intentionally misled the guy, or were so self absorbed that we didn't care. Neither are true. We are all here to help, including Rob. He was just having an irritating day I think. We all do.

As for me, I took the original post as questions regarding the temps of the environment and I addressed those specifically. I saw where he wrote that he fed it "3 or 4 times a week" but I took it as likely exaggeration or a ballpark figure. I think he was trying to stress that the snake was/is well fed to demonstrate that it was/is well cared for.

Also, there are SO many variables on feeding and there was SO little information in the original post that we can't make assumtions that the snakes are grossly overfed. We can't assume things in order to fill in the gaps so we can come here and make an incitefull post like yours here. You don't know if he's feeding them pinkies. You don't know if he's feeding them small mice. You don't know if like I said above he added a little to it and maybe he feeds more like 2 times a week. You've got a lot of nerve taking this one sentence of "they get fed 3-4 times a week) and assuming that he's pounding them with large rats and that all us dumb other guys in the forum chose to ignore this and feeling that it is your duty to expose us all for the dumb a$$es that we are.

Why didn't you take the time to post and ask him exactly how big the meals are and EXACTLY how often they are really fed, before you come on here and make blanket assumtions and accusations stating that his grossly overfed snake and all other overfed snakes will die in 2 years. Statements like this are preposturous!

Yes, you should be ashamed. But not for any of us. For yourself. You took an iota of information and built it up from the mole hill that it was into a mountain of assumption,.. all to try to make yourself look better than the rest of the "wise guys".

"Tis better to be thought the fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

>>I feel so ashamed of some of you. This forum is to educate and help people, to ask questions etc...
>>
>>This thread has over 20 posts, and not one states the obvious, apart from myself, followed up by Tod. This should have been the very first message put out.
>>
>>Overfeeding, especially in large pythons is such a common misconception and a deadly habit. As Tod said, he knows he is power feeding his burmese, and he is doing it twice a week to gain a year on breeding. I would suggest that young burmese be fed once a week, and as they age a meal every 10 days, 2 weeks, and finally an adult male every 3 weeks.
>>
>>If you continue a regime of 3-4 times a week feeding, I doubt the snake will live for more than 2 years old, probably less.
>>
>>This advice should have been available in the first message, and I am not directing my anger at you completely, more to the other guys who are supposed to be helping.
>>
>>I am quite disgusted and I only hope that you will follow my advice on feeding, regardless of what any other 'wise guy' says to you.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Good heavens, what does it matter if he was talking about you or me or the man in the moon? He has as much right to spout off and act all pompous and self-important as anyone else here. But immediately you’re up in his face with the “you’ve got a lot of nerve” routine. I thought he picked up on an important unaddressed detail in the original question and then played the jerk while he tried to take everybody to school. Who cares?

You don’t have to respond to every person who posts here with whom you don’t agree in an acrimonious manner. You don’t have to respond to every person who posts here with whom you don’t agree as if they’ve got some personal vendetta against you. Hey, here’s an idea: You don’t have to respond to every person who posts here with whom you don’t agree at all. If you do, at least learn to debate on the basis of the facts and let your delete key take care of the “I resent that” kind of stuff so every thread here doesn’t keep turning into a drama-fest.

Your internet pal,
Joan

I'm flattered,.. really I am,.. but you are just getting totally hilarious, lol. I swear,... find some other object of interest, you embarrass us both.

>>Good heavens, what does it matter if he was talking about you or me or the man in the moon? He has as much right to spout off and act all pompous and self-important as anyone else here. But immediately you’re up in his face with the “you’ve got a lot of nerve” routine. I thought he picked up on an important unaddressed detail in the original question and then played the jerk while he tried to take everybody to school. Who cares?
>>
>>You don’t have to respond to every person who posts here with whom you don’t agree in an acrimonious manner. You don’t have to respond to every person who posts here with whom you don’t agree as if they’ve got some personal vendetta against you. Hey, here’s an idea: You don’t have to respond to every person who posts here with whom you don’t agree at all. If you do, at least learn to debate on the basis of the facts and let your delete key take care of the “I resent that” kind of stuff so every thread here doesn’t keep turning into a drama-fest.
>>
>>Your internet pal,
>>Joan
>>
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

>>I'm flattered,.. really I am,.. but you are just getting totally hilarious, lol. I swear,... find some other object of interest, you embarrass us both.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Good heavens, what does it matter if he was talking about you or me or the man in the moon? He has as much right to spout off and act all pompous and self-important as anyone else here. But immediately you’re up in his face with the “you’ve got a lot of nerve” routine. I thought he picked up on an important unaddressed detail in the original question and then played the jerk while he tried to take everybody to school. Who cares?
>>>>
>>>>You don’t have to respond to every person who posts here with whom you don’t agree in an acrimonious manner. You don’t have to respond to every person who posts here with whom you don’t agree as if they’ve got some personal vendetta against you. Hey, here’s an idea: You don’t have to respond to every person who posts here with whom you don’t agree at all. If you do, at least learn to debate on the basis of the facts and let your delete key take care of the “I resent that” kind of stuff so every thread here doesn’t keep turning into a drama-fest.
>>>>
>>>>Your internet pal,
>>>>Joan
>>>>
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>>"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Brian Smith, I was not directing anything at anyone specific. Take it as you will.

Now I am directing this at you: Why come back at me with all that? I feel strongly about over feeding, and feel strongly about argumentative 'wise guys' who also think they know it all.

I do not post much on these forums, but I do look in at most things. You are probably the biggest poster on this forum, and it appears as if you know your stuff, and have a lot of experience. However, this does not always make you correct, and I feel, as you are one of the main bodies on this forum, that you concentrate more on helping other people, rather than post messages arguing.

On the other hand, I must admit I forgot about asking about the size of food. However, I thought as a rule of thumb most people would feed adequate sized food, almost the size of the snakes girth. On this occassion I jumped the gun. Although how do you know it was a 'ball park figure'? I find it hard to believe that you can foget whether you feed your snake twice a week, or times a week? Either way, 4 times a week is way too much. Once a week on a good sized prey item is fine. Simple as...

You can argue all you like, but it will lead no where with me. If the guy that needs help wishes to comment, than I will help further.

Hello Reptile Haven,

No, I don't like to cause arguments or stir up anything even remotely less than positive in these forums. I usually always try to get along with all others. You post here just struck me as a little accusatory, rash and uncalled for. That's all.

I appreciate what you said here and how you approached this thread with reason and tact. That goes a long way and I am instantly inclined to do the same. You seem like you are a much nicer and more level headed person than I first took you for based on the post in question.

Fair enough on all counts. I hope to have an amicable rapport with you from here on out. No hard feelings on my end.

>>Brian Smith, I was not directing anything at anyone specific. Take it as you will.
>>
>>Now I am directing this at you: Why come back at me with all that? I feel strongly about over feeding, and feel strongly about argumentative 'wise guys' who also think they know it all.
>>
>>I do not post much on these forums, but I do look in at most things. You are probably the biggest poster on this forum, and it appears as if you know your stuff, and have a lot of experience. However, this does not always make you correct, and I feel, as you are one of the main bodies on this forum, that you concentrate more on helping other people, rather than post messages arguing.
>>
>>On the other hand, I must admit I forgot about asking about the size of food. However, I thought as a rule of thumb most people would feed adequate sized food, almost the size of the snakes girth. On this occassion I jumped the gun. Although how do you know it was a 'ball park figure'? I find it hard to believe that you can foget whether you feed your snake twice a week, or times a week? Either way, 4 times a week is way too much. Once a week on a good sized prey item is fine. Simple as...
>>
>>You can argue all you like, but it will lead no where with me. If the guy that needs help wishes to comment, than I will help further.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani