Reptile & Amphibian Forums

(I am reminded of an old adage,.. "Too many Chiefs,... not enough Indians." You know, where the Chiefs disagree so much that nothing productive gets accomplished. lol. I am reminded of it from time to time in these forums.

No,.. seriously though,.. I would like to see some more posts and pictures of some indian pythons. They are my favorite of all of the molurus cousins.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Brian I do agree with you, however, I think people also need to understand that when they post comments or advice that may be contrary to what the herpetological community (and by that, I mean people who have made real contributions to the hobby/profession) would deem inappropriate or irresponsible or less than ideal, I think it is perfectly fine to speak up and debate the issue. The problem is, most people don't know how to do this w/out getting all bent out of shape. So, w/out trying to beat a dead horse, lets just say that all forums/internet discussions go through these periods (in some ways, it flushes out things that need to be flushed; so to speak).

In terms of Indian Pythons, I couldn't agree more. Our wildlife center may be acquiring a group of 8 individuals in the near future...pretty exciting.

Regardless of if a post contains ideas or suggestions that are contrary to what some herp society "deems inappropriate or irresponsible" I think that we all as member here have a responsibility to be civil and cordial to one another and never condescending. And quite frankly, I do not think that any herp society anywhere sets any standard for me or anyone else in terms of how we should keep our pets. These forums here are not subsidiaries of the greater Chicago Herpetology Society. And some memeber of that society is not the designated voice of authority in worldwide reptile husbandry. Some of the biggest idiots I know in this hobby are high ranking memebers of the highly esteemed Southern California Herpetological Society, lol. I sure as $#!# am not going to listen to them.

But I'm getting a little off course here. The issue at hand, and what you keep ignoring is that your friend was way out of line with what she said to me. I had made very clear what exactly I meant and it in no way got off the path of the fact that it is best to feed inside cages. But she misconstrued it and made it sound like I was recommending that every kid whip out their 15 foot burm and hand them a rabbit. She referred to my example of an exception as "advice" and referred to my advice across the board as "lousy". This is no way for someone who is supposedly held in high regard by a reputable herp society to behave. And the other thing that you are ignoring is that she has had a personal issue with me from day one! This has been going on for a long time and I'm sick of it. It's petty and it's irritating. And don't get me wrong,. I couldn't give a rat's @$$ what she or anyone else thinks about me,. I just hate when I am falsely accused. And then,... because she is your friend,. you had to jump in and take her side without even giving the evidence of the posts any real consideration. She was unreasonable and wrong and then you had to be her knight in shining armor and state in a blanket manner that all that she said was right, and that I was wrong. But all it really did in it's transparency was to make you look bad. And like you often do Rob, I am just shooting straight with you here. You can try to justify all that happened and your part in it all you want but I think it's pretty obvious not only to myself just what happened and why. And this will all be forgotten in a few days and it will blow over and I can go back to respecting you and your opinions once again, but Rob,. you should never sacrifice your credibility to blindly protect or defend personal loyalties.

Congrats on acquiring the 8 indian pythons. That would be very exciting INDEED. It is not very often that I envy another herper, but I am in a state of envy right now over that. What are the sex ratios, do you know? And do you intend to breed them and perhaps supply new bloodlines to remote zoos and other such institutions?

As to anything else,. this is my last post on this issue unless I am hit with questions or further riled. But as I'm sure you are aware, I just come here to post and share my thoughts and I try to help where I can and above all else I try to have fun and to be nice to others. I don't look for trouble, but when it falls in my lap I have no problem dealing with it appropriately and firmly. Now,. back to positive posts. Happy herping.

>>Brian I do agree with you, however, I think people also need to understand that when they post comments or advice that may be contrary to what the herpetological community (and by that, I mean people who have made real contributions to the hobby/profession) would deem inappropriate or irresponsible or less than ideal, I think it is perfectly fine to speak up and debate the issue. The problem is, most people don't know how to do this w/out getting all bent out of shape. So, w/out trying to beat a dead horse, lets just say that all forums/internet discussions go through these periods (in some ways, it flushes out things that need to be flushed; so to speak).
>>
>>In terms of Indian Pythons, I couldn't agree more. Our wildlife center may be acquiring a group of 8 individuals in the near future...pretty exciting.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Brian, I read all of the posts and I suppose I also misunderstood your comments (so you can throw the rocks at me too). And, I appreciate your being upfront and take absolutely NO offense to any of your comments...but I do wholeheartedly disagree that my credibility was somehow chipped away by my coming to Joan's defense (and believe me, she doesn't need a knight to defend her, she is one intelligent lady who can stand on her own)....to be honest, Joan is a VERY reputable person in the herp world and someone I am thankful to know...how can my credibility be tarnished under these circumstances? This forum is not the end all, not even close, not even .00001% of my herp career (and the short amount of time I spend on this forum is probably too much time spent on the computer), and my connections in the herp world (private breeders, zoological institutions, well known authors, herpetologists/academic, etc.) are diverse. I take great pride in being known as a person of integrity and honesty and my forthrightness may be taken the wrong way by people who are oversensitive (and I will be the first to apologize when I feel I was too harsh...ask Cito). And no one ever said that the CHS is the subsidiary of responsible giant snake keeping....but, on a sidenote, you won't find a better bunch nor knowledgeable group of people than Joan and others who actively serve the CHS. If it weren't for the CHS providing a grant to start up my wildlife center, that now features over 60 species of herps including venomous and reaches over 20,000 annually, I wouldn't be able to have the dream jobs of dream jobs.

But, as you said, this will blow over and we will get back to the nuts and bolts of husbandry, responsible ownership and other issues on this forum. We will agree on some points and disagree on others and that is really okay; that is what makes life interesting. We will have our little spats and our pats on our backs when things go well....hey, that's life.

On a sidenote, I don't know the sex ratios on the indians and it is by no means close to being a done deal (still lots of negotiating to take place). I'll keep everyone posted. Our intent would be to breed these animals but right now, things are speculative at best.

Thanks for posting this in a reasonable manner. It's all too easy for any of us to become angry and fling insults, but it is the admirable thing to approach the subject in a calm and rational way.

I'd like to think that the conflict with Joan and I can remain just that, between her and I. You know that I respect you and your experience and your voice in this forum (and others) and I would really like to keep it that way. You can see from her last post below how personal her agenda with me is. She bent over backwards in her post in efforts to try to make me look bad. It's obvious and it's pathetic. As if by lessening my credibility she in turn increases her own? I really don't know. What does this have to do with feeding in the cage? I don't know that either. And the irony of the whole issue is that all three of us actually agree on the subject, lol. I think that maybe she is just having a bad few days and her cap just blew. Who knows. In any event, it's become such a joke that I totally consider it over and done with. Regardless of what dirt she flings about me, I will not respond in kind. But I must tell you Rob, in spite of all your references of how wonderful and intelligent she is,. this behavior is certainly not any evidence to support these claims. In fact, since first seeing her in here many moons ago I have really only seen one post that was even remotely insightful or knowledgeable. So even the text record lacks any real support. Most of the posts I just remember being critical, or rude, or bitter in some way, almost always being judgemental of others,.. but almost never helpful. I don't know what she is like in real life but in here she just seems unhappy, unsociable and very bitter.

Anyhow, like I said, let's not allow this absurd personality conflict ruin us or the rest of the forum. It really isn't fair to others. Plus, they depend on guys like you to help hold this place together and to provide reliable herp husbandry advice. As far as I am concerned, I'm like you in that I don't chalk up one disagreement or argument as such a magnitude as to undo 99% positive experience with a person. My hat is still off to you in many ways.

I too know a lot of big names in the industry that go way back into the mid 70's. And I don't mean some breeder that made it big financially on some nifty new morph. Anyone can do that. I mean the kind of guys that are waist deep in the love of it. The names you rarely hear in mainstream herp circles of present day, but are revered and renowned worldwide. I don't even post about 95% of what I do or what I have done in the past because for one thing these forums are exclusive to a particular breed and not everything I have accomplished has had to do with a burm, or a tic. But I'd bet that you have seen at least a dozen of my reptiles in different movies over the years and would never know it. It's not something I talk about very much because for one thing I don't think it is all that big of a deal. For another people tend to not believe things that sound a little extreme. But I just thought you might find it interesting that you may have seen a big varanid or crocodilian or venomous snake in a movie and may have taken the time to admire it's beauty and majesty and never know that it resdies 20 feet from someone you post to daily.

Anyhow,... back to the forums,....

>>Brian, I read all of the posts and I suppose I also misunderstood your comments (so you can throw the rocks at me too). And, I appreciate your being upfront and take absolutely NO offense to any of your comments...but I do wholeheartedly disagree that my credibility was somehow chipped away by my coming to Joan's defense (and believe me, she doesn't need a knight to defend her, she is one intelligent lady who can stand on her own)....to be honest, Joan is a VERY reputable person in the herp world and someone I am thankful to know...how can my credibility be tarnished under these circumstances? This forum is not the end all, not even close, not even .00001% of my herp career (and the short amount of time I spend on this forum is probably too much time spent on the computer), and my connections in the herp world (private breeders, zoological institutions, well known authors, herpetologists/academic, etc.) are diverse. I take great pride in being known as a person of integrity and honesty and my forthrightness may be taken the wrong way by people who are oversensitive (and I will be the first to apologize when I feel I was too harsh...ask Cito). And no one ever said that the CHS is the subsidiary of responsible giant snake keeping....but, on a sidenote, you won't find a better bunch nor knowledgeable group of people than Joan and others who actively serve the CHS. If it weren't for the CHS providing a grant to start up my wildlife center, that now features over 60 species of herps including venomous and reaches over 20,000 annually, I wouldn't be able to have the dream jobs of dream jobs.
>>
>>But, as you said, this will blow over and we will get back to the nuts and bolts of husbandry, responsible ownership and other issues on this forum. We will agree on some points and disagree on others and that is really okay; that is what makes life interesting. We will have our little spats and our pats on our backs when things go well....hey, that's life.
>>
>>On a sidenote, I don't know the sex ratios on the indians and it is by no means close to being a done deal (still lots of negotiating to take place). I'll keep everyone posted. Our intent would be to breed these animals but right now, things are speculative at best.
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

Hi Rob –

I appreciate that you forcefully stated your opinion on these issues to Brian, or Damon, or whoever he is. I really don’t have a clue about him or his past or why he feels he must post anonymously, although he obviously desires to be considered as someone with great competence. But he sure sounds paranoid! All I know on this forum is what he has told us: He claims to have been keeping herps forever, but his oldest snakes are around 3 years old. He says his last collection was wiped out (well, actually, he got rid of the last of it) because he didn’t practice good quarantine (these are all his words, not mine) but he makes continual dark insinuations about practices at unnamed “big breeders.”

He would probably be happy at the number of times I have held my tongue and moved on when he has made some really wacky remarks. In his posts, he seems not to comprehend the difference between bacteria and viruses, for example. And his recent request that people post to a public message board a list of their entire private collections of Burmese pythons, including details such as the origin of every one, was a real hoot since he certainly wasn’t leading by example on that one!

I usually try to make my point as succinctly as I can and not allow myself to get drawn into a back and forth that isn’t amenable to reason. But sometimes like yesterday I let myself get suckered in when the name calling begins. Since this guy seems to have to post on every single conversation with page-long screeds, it is a real shame that he is unable to deal unhysterically with any opinions that diverge from his own. I couldn’t quite decide yesterday if his whining was on the level, or he was just being childish for some peculiar effect (You were mean to me! Apologize right now!). This post may not stay up long, because he’ll probably go crying to a moderator, but I just got tired of his self-righteous drivel.

I laughed out loud at your “walk in and say ‘here's dinner’” line.

-Joan

Gosh Joan,.. I'm not running for Governor, lol.

You forgot to add that I had a DUI in the mid 80's and I tried marijuana in the 70's. Man,.. this smacks of a character smear campain, ha ha.

Need I say more about a personal agenda folks?

Good day Joan

>>Hi Rob –
>>
>>I appreciate that you forcefully stated your opinion on these issues to Brian, or Damon, or whoever he is. I really don’t have a clue about him or his past or why he feels he must post anonymously, although he obviously desires to be considered as someone with great competence. But he sure sounds paranoid! All I know on this forum is what he has told us: He claims to have been keeping herps forever, but his oldest snakes are around 3 years old. He says his last collection was wiped out (well, actually, he got rid of the last of it) because he didn’t practice good quarantine (these are all his words, not mine) but he makes continual dark insinuations about practices at unnamed “big breeders.”
>>
>>He would probably be happy at the number of times I have held my tongue and moved on when he has made some really wacky remarks. In his posts, he seems not to comprehend the difference between bacteria and viruses, for example. And his recent request that people post to a public message board a list of their entire private collections of Burmese pythons, including details such as the origin of every one, was a real hoot since he certainly wasn’t leading by example on that one!
>>
>>I usually try to make my point as succinctly as I can and not allow myself to get drawn into a back and forth that isn’t amenable to reason. But sometimes like yesterday I let myself get suckered in when the name calling begins. Since this guy seems to have to post on every single conversation with page-long screeds, it is a real shame that he is unable to deal unhysterically with any opinions that diverge from his own. I couldn’t quite decide yesterday if his whining was on the level, or he was just being childish for some peculiar effect (You were mean to me! Apologize right now!). This post may not stay up long, because he’ll probably go crying to a moderator, but I just got tired of his self-righteous drivel.
>>
>>I laughed out loud at your “walk in and say ‘here's dinner’” line.
>>
>>-Joan
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

I must comment on this Joan. I am relatively new to this forum, I have been posting regularly for about four months or so, and I have followed teh debate or whatever it is that you want to call it. It appears periodically between you and Damon. Well I will say that Damon isn't always the kindest person in his posts to you he has never once tried to slander or degrade your reputation. Almost in every thread of this type you bring up the fact that he uses a psuedonym, and you try to discredit him by bringing up his past. That is slander and direct negative comments about another individual and is supposedly not allowed with in this forum. Why the moderators have not said something abou tthis surprises me. Damon does bring a lot to this forum adn his knowledge and advice is exceptional. I think it would be wise to forget about everything and get back to the true purpose of this forum which is to share helpfull ideas and ask questions. Todd

“Well I will say that Damon isn't always the kindest person in his posts to you he has never once tried to slander or degrade your reputation”

Todd -

Slander refers to spoken words, like in a speech. I believe you mean libel. However, I think something has to be false to be libelous, doesn't it? Can you point out any false statements I have made in the exchange to which you are referring? That should be easy to check in the few posts I made on this issue.

BrianSmith/Damon doesn’t have to be “the kindest person in his posts” to me, but he should be able to simply discuss the topic at hand and leave the drama out. He’s gotten into plenty of online spats here and elsewhere, but NOT WITH ME, because in the past when he came back with a sarcastic or condescending response, I simply did not reply again to him AT ALL. But sorry - comes the day I do choose to laugh at one of his jerky responses to a perfectly reasonable (and brief!) opinion I posted (this all started here), he shouldn’t burst into tears when he gets some of his own back, and race up and down the page telling anyone who will listen how aggrieved he feels . I mean, he’s entitled to, of course. You just won’t convince me it is anything other than lame.

-Joan

This guy/gal is about 3 months old.

What a beautiful little guy. Thanks for posting this picture. Indians are my favs of the molurus family.

>>This guy/gal is about 3 months old.
>>
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani