Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It makes me so mad......

I see KS classifieds that advertise "pairs" for sale, and they are from the SAME CLUTCH..!! Most people understand that you shouldn't breed siblings - but there are still folks out there that haven't done enough research to know that when they make their forst purchase.

Since we have been keeping chams, it has been mentioned over and over to get unrelated bloodlines for good breeding. Yet we see other sellers deliberately ignoring this "cardinal rule" and doing it anyway. Why? Is is simply greed? Don't they care?

We have purchased many chameleons over the years and we have seen what inbreeding causes. We have had veileds die unexpectedly, laid eggs with no shells, and develop odd problems. Our vet has examined most of them, necropsied a few - and all we can figure is genetic defects.

We purchased several nosy be babies - and the single survivor (past 3 months) was misshapen, crippled and tiny. We felt it best to euthanize him. Yet another nosy that we received grew up with double ankle joints. He has a special cage set up, just so he can get around. He is healthy as a horse - but just a pet (we have never considered breeding him). Our vet would like him after he crosses the rainbow bridge - for research.

Seeing these horrors has only strengthened our determination to never sell a "pair" from the same clutch. We tell customers over and over about the ramifications of such things, and we refuse a sale if we suspect they might not have other bloodlines to breed to the ones they purchase from us.

We certainly hope that all you that are just getting started with chameleons ask tons of questions of the sellers..... and be sure to question the bloodlines of "pairs" or TRIOS. You don't want to have your long-awaited hatchlings to suffer with deformities and death.

Just had to vent - after seeing yet ANOTHER of these ads posted. Grrrrrrrrrr,
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I saw the same thing 10 minutes ago and thought the same thing. I noticed other things wrong with the same ad also. I completely agree with you on it and think it's wrong and shouldn't be done. Doesn't someone putting up an ad like that realize that it's totally obvious inbreeding? You would think that they would at least try to hide it. Produced by LLL from different parents? Yeah right. LLL doesn't "produce" anything. If anything, it's also false advertising to say that adult Diegos sell for $5-700. I've never seen one for that much that I can remember. Plus, if they're only 12 weeks of age for $499, why wouldn't someone get them straight from LLL for half that?
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

Tyler,

There is another ad that I know are siblings being sold as breeders - not just the one you are referring to.

I truly feel that something has to give if we are going to preserve the chameleons. Their habitat is dwindling - and there are "breeders" cashing on their popularity instead of trying to preserve the species.

Some people on soapboxes criticize the cross-locale panthers, while there are those that deliberately breed them and advertise them proudly on their websites. There are some of us who have been sold w/c females and we may never know where they came from - thus producing the accidental cross-locale offspring. At least it is breeding specimens that don't share the same DNA..!!

Another pet peve of mine... accidently crossing panthers is certainly not a crime, and can't be until such time as there is a proven method to identify the locale of females. After all - it is not unlike breeding a white poodle to a brown poodle.

Sadly, for the hobbyist who is fascinated with the chameleon, he/she can get talked into buying a "pair" easily. Most folks naturally think of things in "pairs" after all. I just wish sellers would think more of the future of these marvelous animals rather than their wallets! But that is an ideal world, eh?

Besides... if we wanted to make bucks... we'd be raising geckos or snakes instead! *LOL*
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when you said from the same clutch... did you mean all clutches from the same parents? or just that one clutch?

Vlad.

Vlad,

We don't sell babies from the same set of parents (no matter what clutch they hatched in) as breeding pairs. They still share the same DNA..... and are siblings.

Hope this explains..
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that is what i thought!

Thanks.

I agree with Morgana, that sellers should not sell siblings as breeding pairs. If they are going to sell a group, they should advertise in plain english that they are related, and discourage against imbreeding.

I personally think imbreeding is gross. I've never seen genetic defomities with chameleons, but I've seen them in other things, and it ills me out.

I think some of the rationale behind why people post breeding groups of siblings could be:

1) Ignorance. Simply not having a clue. I looked through those ads, and I don't get the impression that they are chameleon breeders. Maybe they are a general petstore that bought them from a local breeder.

2) I know that imbreeding is fairly normal with other reptiles, like the Ball pythons. Breeding a child back to mother etc. Perhaps they think its ok. Maybe this goes with the above reason (ignorance)

In any event, its wrong, and its gross. I highly doubt these people are real breeders. It seems like they are trying to make a "quick buck". I don't think they are real breeders because real breeders arn't in this to make a "quick buck". It takes a certain level of commitment to breed chameleons. In my opinion, they are more difficult than most reptiles, and I have seen people make an unsuccessful attempts, only to quit and concentrate on other projects. And I think that the select few who are capable of that commitment, would'nt want to see their efforts go down the toilet.

I sometimes regret entering into such debates, but...

There are breeders; who make a serious contribution to the chameleon trade.
AND
There are the "others"; who sense a desire and figure out how to profit from it.

I see both types of sellers on a regular basis. Usually, the latter will find a way to undercut the price of the serious breeders to make their offer more appealing. The "others" know that most people will shop for the best price...

The "others" don't have loyalty to their product. If it stays alive until they sell it.. so be it.

The "others" stay in the picture because people buy from them. If every chameleon keeper got referrals and did their homework, I think a lot of these people would find an easier market to exploit.

Would you pay $50 more for a chameleon knowing that you are helping a serious breeder continue their work? or Would you take the cheaper chameleon in hopes of getting a good deal, and a healthy chameleon?

I would choose the more expensive chameleon simply because I would like to see less peddlers in our industry. I'm spiteful.

Personal Note:
Morgana; I have a great deal of respect for you. You are what I consider a very positive resource in the chameleon trade. I love seeing people as active in the community as well as making a serious contribution with your breeding. I look forward to working with you at some time in the future.
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com-- Site Comes Online 12/21/03

Joe,

I have been wanting to post this subject for some time - but didn't really want to stir the pot, so to speak. However, lately I just cannot sit idly by while this type of thing goes on - repeatedly. I suppose the ads I read yesterday pushed me over the edge..... *LOL*

Thanks for the personal note... we really do try - but just don't know how much we can do. Short of "tarring & feathering",
I guess speaking out to expose these folks is the only choice.
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I agree. inbreeding for a quick buck is sad. sad it is so rampant.It just gives the cham world a bad name. I myself am going to attempt a breeding project. I got my female at reptile depot.And am looking for a male.Since i dont knwo where she came from(siblings), im kinda like rolling the dice, the the odds are low i think i that i would get a sibling.but to inbreed, and then those inbreds breeding, is just wrong. Morgana this is a topic that should be discussed more on here.I think the Buyer's have a right to know and should not be decieved in that way.it will help to protect possibly the buyer and discourage the practice.-oof long post , dave

I've heard that this is one of the worst things you can possibly do with almost any animal. It basically breeds back the defects and deformaties and eventually you'll get very sick and short lived animals.

In chameleons I think they get a common deformaty known as "domehead"...this is extremely painful for the animal and they look deformed. The casque is not visible or it is in the shape of a dome.

This is not a good idea at all and I would be angry with anyone who tried to sell me a "pair" that were brother/sisters.

Makes you wonder if the pair's parents were bred brother and sister too.
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Chris

1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

I strongly agree with you. I would not breed any siblings. I believe that all reptiles have the right to the best life they could possibly have in captivity. And causing them great deformities is just downright animal cruelty.
People who do this, or try to sell siblings as a breeding pair, need to have their foot shoved up their butt(with superglue) and see how they like being screwed up for life.
Cricket

I am very seriously upset over this matter. We have been keeping chams for over 4 years - and we pass up breeding opportunities because we don't have "new bloodlines" - while others breed the siblings and sell them to an unsuspecting public.

The worst thing... is that these animals are out there. Any of us could end up with these animals that could pass on deformities. Actually, we already have... but we dealt with it responsibly.

We have seen a pet store owner breed brother and sister veileds - and keep the eggs to hatch - free inventory..???? Recently, I pitched out a clutch of veiled eggs because the mother was treated with antibiotics early in her pregnancy - and we know that this can cause birth defects. We discussed this with our vet thouroghly. I felt it better to do that, than to risk deformed babies. I have seen deformed babies from another breeder's clutch..... no thanks!

So... what can we do? There has to be a way to educate the public so that this problem doesn't snowball on ALL of us. Currently, we buy from only a few people to expand our colony. To be honest... we have no idea what we are going to get! Early on we had our share of the "inbreds"

Does anyone have ideas how to start?
Do you think any effort will do any good?
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Morgana:

It is hard to find a place to begin and I really can't even provide an answer. I am posting here to provide yet another angle to this mess of selling sibling pairs. As you very well know, I do not inbreed and I would rather sell out of a bloodline than inbreed just to keep it going.

My concern here is the following, many people out there do purchase a chameleon as founding stock for an eventual breeding project and these people care for the chameleon as a pet for a long time and then look into getting a male or female to complete a breeing pair. The main situation today is that chameleons (especially panther chameleons) are seen as a money maker. Some people will buy chameleons with their eyes set on the amount of money they will make out of the animals. If this is the mentality then the need to obtain a pair as soon as possible to get your investment back becomes a driving force and these people will buy anything they can at the cheapest price possible. The sooner they can produce babies, any babies, the sooner they make money and that is all that matters. These people will consider themselves breeders at the time they purchase a pair of chameleons and their only goal is to make money, not the well being of the animals.
All reputable breeders, me included, make money from the sales of the offspring produced yet there is a different feel about how we care about our animals as they are part of the household and not just a fixture that is supposed to be used as an ATM machine.

The longer Panther Chameleons are seen as a money producing animal, the longer we will have to battle this scenario you are worried about because as long as there is a market to buy a pair of Panther Chameleons, related or not, they will be offered for sale. It is up to the buyer to be responsible and breed those animals to other unrelated animals if they really care about them or to just inbreed them and make their "investment" back in no time.
I have seen already a few posts where the animals are being offered for sale with the promise of making your money back, and then some, in no time. I can't say those animals are going to be related but who knows anymore.

I guess I just added more coal to the fire but, like you, I have been wanting to mention this for a while and I believe this is the right time to do so.

Ivan,

I firmly believe that if the chameleon species are to be maintained captively, while their habitats are destroyed, we need to throw fuel on the fire now!

If inbreeding continues, the panther will become as fragile as the veiled (we all have heard about the years of inbreeding with that species). And I fear all the other captively kept species will follow too.

I don't feel that we really know enough yet about the husbandry to consider it easy to breed and reproduce chameleons - we continue to learn about these marvelous creatures daily. If every "tom, dick and sally" get into breeding chameleon siblings I fear we will soon see the doom of these animals.

Take for example the push to get the eggs to hatch (veiled) by raising the temperatures. I have heard "so-called" breeders brag that they got the eggs to hatch in 5-6 months! But what happened to those babies??? More than likely, that person dumped them (when they were a few weeks old) into the pet stores, and never knew whether or not they survived - and most likely didn't care because he had his cash in his pocket.

We had a clutch (veiled) get too warm and hatch in less than 7 months. The babies were tiny and weak. Many didn't have the instinct to eat or drink, and they survived only for a few weeks. As much attention as I paid to them, they continued to fail. After much thought, and rather than risking weak babies dying in the hands of an inexperienced keeper - we called our vet for euthanizing. As sad as it was, I know it was for the best.

Fast money in chameleons??? By the time you or us sell a 1 year old cb panther - we have a 2 year investment in that animal. If we get $350 for the animal we have earned approximately $.45 a day for the effort. I think anyone could make better money flipping burgers!

And the emotional attachment is a whole other story!!!

Maybe I should become the black sheep, and put pictures of deformed chameleons on our website - and try to educate people on husbandry basics. Heck - you wouldn't take a $500 pedigreed dog and breed it to its sibling!!! For years, people heard horror stories about feral cats who inbred and produced deformed offspring. What is so different with reptiles? I actually never knew that snakes were inbred either - I would have never guessed someone would do it.

Something has got to be done - before it gets out of hand. We are open for suggestions... maybe we could figure out an appropriate approach.
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I agree with you. I especially agree that there is really no "big bucks" to be made on chameleons. For big bucks, go breed Ball Pythons and other snakes because there is certainly a big return for your investment and little work. Chameleons are a lot of work and little or no profit. However, when done incorrectly with no regard for the chameleons itself you can still produce enough babies and dump them quick enough to make money. You gave the example of the Veileds and that's exactly what could happen with Panthers, Jacksons, and any other chameleon that becomes "hot".

Chameleons are certainly not a species to try and make money off immediately. You might end up making some money in the long run if done properly. Done improperly, then you certainly have a chance at making some money immediately at the cost of the chameleons' health.

In the end it is up to what a person decides is more important, money or the animals.

I agree 100% with having a genetically diverse breeding colony, but inbreeding can also strengthen a bloodline rather than weakening it. By inbreeding and then by selectively breeding the siblings, after numerous generations you will start eliminating the the genes that cause weaknesses in the animals. Which in turn will create your bloodline to be "superior" to the common wild bloodlines. This is basically how evolution works. Except the certain characteristics that cause an animal to be inferior to an other due to inability to find food as well, hide from predators, fight disease, etc. will be eleminated by the animal dying. Which will cause the animal to become extinct, or have to gentically change in order to survive. So, by inbreeding you are really just speeding up the process and having the weak gentic traits become visible more quickly. So by selectively breeding the "stonger" animals you are basically creating a gentically stronger animal. But, if I where going to do this I defintely would not pick a species like the chameleon that is hard enough to keep alive and breed, compared to other reptiles. I think this a big reason why ball python morphs are becoming more abundant lately. All the inbreeding is causing the recessive traits to become apparent. And if you take the "spider" morph of ball python, this morph breeds at a much younger age, with no apparent negative effects and it groes much quicker as well. In the wild I would assume these two traits to make the animal genetically superior to other ball pythons. But, genetic diversity is the easiest way for a species to have the best chances for survial.

Hi Paul,

I agree with part of what you said... but it needs to be clarified.

I grew up with animal husbandry: horses to begin with. Down the line I learned about more "farm" animals, later in life I learned about breeding championship bloodlines (canines). Not too far in the past, I was involved with breeding exotic finches. So, some husbandry "rules" are good for most species.

Is there inbreeding in nature? Sure there is - let's take the African lion, for example. The male finds a mate or two and forms his pride. After they give birth, and the cubs grow up, the males are driven off. The pride now consists of the dominant male and his wives and daughters. He breeds with all of them. This reinforces his genes. Survival of the fittest.

The only time that this pride gets a new infusion to the gene pool - is when another single male de-thrones the dominant male. Then he immediately breeds the females (and kills any young male offspring from the previous "king".

So, as we can see, Nature has allowed for breeding down the DNA ladder. But we're discussing breeding ACROSS the ladder - to siblings. Siblings should never be bred together - not in dogs, horses, cats, birds, etc. So why is it acceptable in reptiles?

Have we really had enough time to see that this "speeding up evolution" is good for those snakes? I can't comment - snake challenged here.

I do know that I have seen things that shouldn't be - and that is selling siblings to an inexperienced public and encouraging them to breed them. I firmly believe this is wrong.

Let's look at this from another angle - if you encounter a person with Down's syndrome, you immediately know there is a problem. You take the necessary steps to consider and care for that condition. How do we ascertain if the chameleon's body is functioning correctly - free from invisible defect?

By the time some defects make themselves apparent - the cham can be month's old. What if it was sold to an inexperienced keeper? What if they bred that chameleon to another? The domino effect has been set in motion......
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Also remember that that lion pride has a pretty severe culling effect called Nature. When undesirable traits do show up it often means the animal doesn't survive to pass it on. In captivity we may unintentionally keep that less fit animal alive long enough to pass both the good and the bad on to offspring. The ball python breeding craze is still very "young". It may take more years of inbreeding to show the problems. I bet many of the snakes used as breeders now are still genetically quite healthy as they are only 2-3 generations from wild stock that is remotely or not related at all. Lots of genetic variety in the population still. Also there are probably A LOT more snakes to choose from in captive collections.

I think the biggest problem in this industry are the number of people with limited business knowledge/experience. They bring their big dreams of a quick buck and little practical knowledge of the money involved "behind the scenes" to run a business properly. So when these cash flow issues start to rear their head they look at ways to cut corners in the breeding/rearing process that in reality cost more money (lost sales, refunds, lost animals) than the little bit they save. This is true across most species. They don't realize that they can easily recoup the $35 - $50 shipping costs they spent to get starting stock from different breeders/bloodlines by providing quality to their customers.

A ray of hope in the whole situation is that I've noticed a trend of more educated (in a sense of animal care) customers at shows (at least at the west coast shows I've vended at) that are willing to spend a little more money to get quality specimens (I've really seen this in the uromastyx area). Remember we're (as a group) selling a luxury item that they WANT as opposed to an item that they NEED, so price is not the only determination in their buying decision.
Scales - Premium Exotic Reptiles

Hi Daniel & Wendy,

I think you hit the nail on the head!
Lack of business experience is a big factor with some of these new cham "breeders". Fast money sure isn't the reason for raising chameleons - it isn't the "cash cow" that snake breeding is - for sure!

At our last show (October/Hilsboro) we noticed more educated inquiries as well. Hopefully, curiousity is leading to research, but there will always be the impulse buyers. And those folks always look for a bargain!

Currently, we are working with a limited list of resellers. We require certain conditions to house and care for our chams if they are a pet store. With one store, we supplied the cage, lights, and animals on consignment. Giving them a limited amount of animals to sell trims down the loss factor too. We even prepared care sheets and gave them lists of needed items to purchase to give to their buyers. We go by and check the animals weekly - if they sell them, they can request more. Two or three at a time makes sense to us. And they are made VERY aware of the dangers of selling related animals in pairs!

We are seriously trying to do what we can, but we are a small company and do not present much of a presence in the industry as yet. This fact, however, does not diminish the anger and distaste we feel for those in the industry that are doing irrepairable damage by selling sibling "pairs".
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I vote to start a not-for-profit group that is dedicated to educate breeders and the public alike.

Help network reputable breeders that follow breeding standards and promote the group philosophy.

Assure buyers that their animals have been bred/raised under certain guidelines.

We need to establish a presence in the market as well. Websites, shows, publications etc.

Every point of sale where those "other" people set up shop, we need to offer an alternative or reason to walk out the door.

I want to hear input:
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Joe
- www.silkwormfarm.com-- Site Comes Online 12/21/03

Why not start right here??? IN our own backyard, so to speak. Anyone have access to the Kingsnak folk?? I know they are in it for the money (ad money, that is). How much does one of the ad banners cost to run??? I'd be willing to pitch in some money to buy a banner on Kingsnake and donate space on my website to host an informational website that everyone can provide input to. I'd even buy the domain name that we all wanted to use as the link to the site.

Maybe Kingsnak would even offer to donate some adspace (preferably right on the cham classifieds page) to help us get the message out?

That's my idea....anyone else?
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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

Sorry to wade in late on this. I think one of the realities we as RESPONSIBLE keepers have to deal with is that there will most likely be 2 "classes" of breeders. Those who care about the multigenerational health of chameleons and those who will always just do it for the money. If the "real" chameleon breeders keep the communication lines open, don't get secretive and exclusive about their business (and their animals), support each other for the sake of the species they work with, and make their quality known to the pet buying public, many of the problems can be prevented. As for the scum who crank out little profit makers there may not be a lot we can do. I know it sounds callus, but most of these folks will lose interest, their animals may not survive past the first few generations, and pet buyers will realize the animals they bought from them were sad and sickly. Just as inbred dogs have become more of an issue. The sad thing is that lots of chams will suffer in the mean time. Part of the dilemma is also the bargain hunter pet buyer. It is very hard to convince an ignorant buyer to spend more on quality animals whose genetic health is known than that $40 miserable creature they see in a classified. Did you complain to kingsnake about the ad? When we see junk like this on a site we can make our concerns known to the site owner at least.

Yes, it's greed! I personally have bought several pairs and trios that are from the same clutch. But I also use a labeling system on my breeders to prevent me from inbreeding. I won't even breed any of the offspring to each other with the system I use. All babies come out of my incubator into cages that are labeled with the parents ID and dates hatched. Right now, it would not be a problem for me to easily pick out 5 TOTALLY UNRELATED veileds. But most people don't care what they sell, or if your veiled lays bad clutches. Too many wouldn't care if your VC died eggbound. Not as long as they got their $ for it. And yes, most of the big companies have bought entire clutches from independent breeders. They get a good price this way, and can easily advertise 1 for $? , 2 for $?, and get a trio for even less.
Cricket