Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A guy came into my work today and told me a story about this guy who had a pet nile monitor and a pitbull that both got along together. Well one day the pitbull was barking at the nile and the nile whipped the dogs feet with its tail turning the dog upside down and the nile bit the pitbull on his neck and kill the dog. I think he said he heard it on the news or newspaper. Has anyone heard about this?? I would like to get some more info on this subject...Thanks

One friend had a 7ft common nile named tut that was leashed to a tree in the front of his yard while the cage was being cleaned, and a neighbor walked his doberman into the yard to mess with the lizard. None the less, tut whipped the dogs legs and broke 2 before the dog crawled out of the yard crying and the owner yelled at my friend who was watching from his kitchen window, my friend offered to call the police because the dog was not under the owners control. The police showed up, fined the owner of the dog for breaking leash laws and threatened to turn him in for cruelty towards his dog for trying to fight it against the nile, and endangering my friends nile which was restrained.

that must be the dumbest thing i ever heard a pitbull or a doberman or what ever big aggresive dog would kill a monitor in seconds stop lying, i know monitors are powerful but not that powerful, only a komodo could do that and i'm assuming u guys aren't talking about that

I've seen some very angry monitors and some very angry dogs, and I don't think the dog would know what to do at first... I think the monitor being more wild than a domesticated dog would have the element of surprise on its hands. Dogs don't normally use their tails as weapons.

I don't think it would be a very nice sight to see. I don't think they should interact.

Oscar

Look, let's settle down before you go and accuse people of lying. Sure, the first account may be unsubstantiated at this point, but to call someone a liar when you have absolutely no basis for it, what is wrong with you? And by the way, your automatic assumption that a Komodo Dragon is the only monitor capable of inflicting massive damage such as described by the previous posts indicates you as a clear neophyte to varanids. Just so you know.
Robert Stone

do the damage as well,they pack some pretty nifty carving equipment and ive seen a 7 footer so........also shvars BT looks like he could pull it off aswell.As for a nile monitor,im may be wrong but im sure ive seen a pic of someone holding a nile that was twice the size of a pit(not jeff lemms)To be honest i'd prefer if it wasnt true,but thats just me
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see yah laterz people
jason

A good sized dog. After all there are many stories from PNG of Croc monitors killing hunting dogs in groups, some by breaking their necks.
Im sure if Sobek felt threatened she could take 3 fingers off of your hand in one bite. Ive seen her crush bones with no effort with those jaws. In fact the same leg bones were given to my one friends pit bull and one to Sobek at the same time, it took a few minutes of biting and chewing for Brutus (red devil pit) to break the bone, and Sobek crunched immediately through with no appearant effort (1-2 seconds).
Varanids have been here for 60 million years almost or very little change in so many environments and locations but why havent mammals made them extinct? hmmm.... Survivors, adapters, and very sucessful predators they are.

survival vs extinction has very little to do with who would win in a fight. It's far more complex and has to do with competition within a particular niche, in most cases. Part of the reason Australia has so many monitor species, for example, is a dearth of carnivorous mammals. The harshness of the environment also comes into play, for reptiles are far better at waiting out the bad times than mammals, which need to eat more frequently (except for hibernators, of course)

And Asia there are the largest selection of large carnivorous mammals and birds as well as snakes found anywhere, but monitors flourish there and are more sucessful than the other carnivores.
Example Etosha natl. park there are 6500 adult WTs weighing an average 15lbs or more, if the total tonage of carnivorous mammals and birds are added up that total is less than a quarter that of the Whitethroat populations weight in the park alone (they have large populations of lion, cheetah, hyena, leopard, jackals etc etc). In Asia some areas the Water monitor is found in such dense populations that 5 or more (adults alone)can be found in a 50 square meter area near a stream river etc. Mammal predators have less to do with monitors and their survival than it seems, in Australia it helped to allow a large selection of monitor species to fill the available niches.

Africa: 4 monitor species
Australia: 25 monitor species

Yes, if you measure the biomass of reptiles vs mammalian predators in areas where both occur, reptiles will exceed because you can sustain a much larger population of ectotherms than endotherms on the same amount of food.

The point I am making is about evolutionary success (as a group) not depending on whether or not they can beat up mammals in a fight. It's about niche separation.

If you were to have a look at those parts of Asia where the densities of large salvator is very high, you'll be sure to find the number (and density) of mammalian carnivores very low. Chances are, the former is the result of the latter rather than vice versa. And this doesn't involve counting the number of mammalian carnivores that occur in Asia, but the population status in a particular area. For example, there are usually large numbers of monitors around human settlements because 1. there is garbage to be had 2. most mammalian carnivores (skunks, foxes and coyotes being notable exceptions) don't do well near humans.

"survival vs extinction has very little to do with who would win in a fight. It's far more complex and has to do with competition within a particular niche, in most cases. Part of the reason Australia has so many monitor species, for example, is a dearth of carnivorous mammals"

I may have missed a species (yemenensis), so the count may be

Africa 5
Australia 25

A niche that does not include a smaller or small predators (ie small species of monitor). There are few small species of monitor found outside of Australia in comparison.

that doesn't really change anything, does it?

once again:

"survival vs extinction has very little to do with who would win in a fight. It's far more complex and has to do with competition within a particular niche, in most cases. Part of the reason Australia has so many monitor species, for example, is a dearth of carnivorous mammals"

Where does it say 'big' or 'small' in that quote?

Where they are found there are Tigers, and always have been. They live in the same areas "near almost any body of water", the areas where people are there are lower populations of both. In Africa there are high concentrations of nile monitors near human settlements.
Either way these populations have been high since before people were in either place.
The point is they survive in plain view of large mammalian carnivores in almost every environment because they can, they can defend themselves and live in the same niche as those mammals. Few monitors in those environments are preyed upon by mammals outside of people. Their predators are mainly eagles, and large constricting snakes. We can argue this all year but it strays from the subject.
Simple approach, capture, restrain an irrate monitor (not just hissing tail whipping, but full tail whips,biting, lunging,etc)4-5 ft long and compare it to a dog etc in the same position that weighs much more.

"Simple approach, capture, restrain an irrate monitor (not just hissing tail whipping, but full tail whips,biting, lunging,etc)4-5 ft long and compare it to a dog etc in the same position that weighs much more."

Why don't you just send that to PETA while your at it I am sure they will like your way of thinking that they are mean evil brutal killing machines that cannot be restrained.

LOL in reality they can be restrained, from an ackie up to a Komodo, to a large crocodilian. People have proven that time and time again. On your theory of they will always win or are bigger and badder. In the wild they are preyed upon and they prey upon. So when a fish eats a baby monitor does that make the fish now top dog??? When that monitor is older and eats the fish is it now top dog?? What about the eagle that eats both the fish and the monitor??

Your right it can be argued all day, But why waste your breath??

Besides I didnt say you couldnt restrain them, duh...I said compare them..thank you.

Understanding Shvargasm.

I worked with animals all my life from small to large as big cats. I don't think I could call any of them easy to restrain.

Why your spewing this mumbo jumbo is about the only thing I do not understand. You never got to a point you just spilled a bunch of paint on the canvas.

Anybody can spill paint but does that mean they painted a clear picture???

nice metaphor, that spilled paint one. Mind if I borrow it from time to time?

n/p

Information from Daniel Bennett, Mark Bayless, and a few others. I mentioned 2 video tapes available to the public, I could quote more examples from my experience, and info from Bennett and Bayless. I guess according to you and Billyboy we are all liars even if video, memories of experience, reference of events in a book etc are quoted and you choose not to believe it. In fact the one video tape I mentioned a picture from that event was used for the cover of the "Australian Goannas" book. 2 other events on video were quoted, one of those is also mentioned in Bennetts book and a few others.

This sounds like all supposition on your part. I'd like to know your sources. Have you ever tried to subdue a 10 pound cat that did not want to be subdued? I would bet it's worse than alot of 10lb monitors. What about a pissed off Jack Russell? The list goes on, and for what it's worth, I have raised Pits for 12 years and have close to 10 years cumulative of raising monitors and tegus and I have a hard time believing these stories especially when you throw around these "facts" about how monitors have evolved and their population densities etc. Billy

>>Where they are found there are Tigers, and always have been. They live in the same areas "near almost any body of water", the areas where people are there are lower populations of both. In Africa there are high concentrations of nile monitors near human settlements.
>>Either way these populations have been high since before people were in either place.
>>The point is they survive in plain view of large mammalian carnivores in almost every environment because they can, they can defend themselves and live in the same niche as those mammals. Few monitors in those environments are preyed upon by mammals outside of people. Their predators are mainly eagles, and large constricting snakes. We can argue this all year but it strays from the subject.
>>Simple approach, capture, restrain an irrate monitor (not just hissing tail whipping, but full tail whips,biting, lunging,etc)4-5 ft long and compare it to a dog etc in the same position that weighs much more.

"This sounds like all supposition on your part."

Call it what you want but you want reference to biomass numbers you can find it in several places, one was an article that came out in Reptile mag, and was referenced by King and Green I believe or it may have been Daniel Bennett (or both)for his older monitor book.

."Have you ever tried to subdue a 10 pound cat that did not want to be subdued?"

First point a 10lb cat cant tail whip you, youve obviously never been tail whipped by any monitor over 1-2 ft or bitten either.

"I would bet it's worse than alot of 10lb monitors. What about a pissed off Jack Russell?"

Bet I have.

"The list goes on, and for what it's worth, I have raised Pits for 12 years and have close to 10 years cumulative of raising monitors and tegus and I have a hard time believing these stories especially when you throw around these "facts" about how monitors have evolved and their population densities etc. Billy"

This proves how little experience you have with monitors period, this comment alone.

First of all, ASSume what you will about me and my experience with monitors. You're wrong. Secondly, I have been bitten and tail whipped by subadult monitors (3 and 4 footers), but not by adults. I have been tail-whipped by adult male green iguanas and have the scars to prove it. I know, apples to oranges, but my point is that I have a hard time believing that even a 7 foot Nile could snap an adult Dobie's legs. Their leg bones are similar in size to a human forearm, but I have never heard of a large monitor breaking any human bones. A large (8 feet or more) gator or crocodile, maybe, but I just can't see it with a monitor. Do you have any way to make me a believer? Police reports, vet reports, etc? And as far as having practical experience with monitors, what does that have to do with studying biomass numbers? I am much more concerned with how to keep them happy and healthy in captivity. I am more interested in reading about natural history and natural behaviors and how to apply that to my husbandry methods than how many V. niloticus there are per hectare in Etosha. It's one thing to argue a point with facts, but don't make assumptions about people that you know nothing about. I simply asked for you to back up your comments. Billy

>>"This sounds like all supposition on your part."
>>
>>Call it what you want but you want reference to biomass numbers you can find it in several places, one was an article that came out in Reptile mag, and was referenced by King and Green I believe or it may have been Daniel Bennett (or both)for his older monitor book.
>>
>>."Have you ever tried to subdue a 10 pound cat that did not want to be subdued?"
>>
>>First point a 10lb cat cant tail whip you, youve obviously never been tail whipped by any monitor over 1-2 ft or bitten either.
>>
>> "I would bet it's worse than alot of 10lb monitors. What about a pissed off Jack Russell?"
>>
>>Bet I have.
>>
>> "The list goes on, and for what it's worth, I have raised Pits for 12 years and have close to 10 years cumulative of raising monitors and tegus and I have a hard time believing these stories especially when you throw around these "facts" about how monitors have evolved and their population densities etc. Billy"
>>
>>This proves how little experience you have with monitors period, this comment alone.

Where it happened, the name of the police department, you can ask them, as well most people who have lived in that area know that event and all about "tut". He no longer has a pet shop open but you can contact the police to verify the report on the nile. The name of the local police chief whos lived 2 blocks away and contacts him to capture wild animals loose in houses etc. If you want I have pics of his one WT as well his Red devil pit "Brutus". And Ill see if the current owner of tut can provide pics of him.
Now you want any more to prove? I was there for all but the nile "dobermut" incident, but every one of his nosey neighbors witnessed it, as well verified by the muts owner to me in person.

Got the email. Thanks for the info. I'll follow up. Was the dog with the broken legs a Doberman or a mutt, because earlier you called it a Doberman, and now you're calling it a mutt. Which was it, and how big, because if it was a mutt, and was say 40 or 50 pounds or under, I might be able to believe it. Oh yeah, when did it happen so I can search newspaper articles. Surely something that horrific must have made the local papers. Also keep in mind that I'm not challenging your claims about your Sobek or the other WT knocking a dog over with a tail slap, just the bone breaking of a large breed dog. Billy

>>Where it happened, the name of the police department, you can ask them, as well most people who have lived in that area know that event and all about "tut". He no longer has a pet shop open but you can contact the police to verify the report on the nile. The name of the local police chief whos lived 2 blocks away and contacts him to capture wild animals loose in houses etc. If you want I have pics of his one WT as well his Red devil pit "Brutus". And Ill see if the current owner of tut can provide pics of him.
>>Now you want any more to prove? I was there for all but the nile "dobermut" incident, but every one of his nosey neighbors witnessed it, as well verified by the muts owner to me in person.

Ill email you a pic of the pit and Blaize together (when you see them you could never believe that that WT could knock the s#1t out of Brutus, but I was sitting on the floor watching TV and Blaize crawled out from under the chair in front of me, Brutus lunged in to lick Blaize and was smacked like a homerun, right across the left side of the head. Took him a few seconds to get up then run for the bathroom where his owner was. Brutus avoids any lizards small or large now. Blaize roams the house once a day he even spends overnight roaming on occaision and brutus keeps 3 ft or more from him. I couldnt imagine what Sobek can do with her tail, its almost impossible to get her that upset.

"Where they are found there are Tigers, and always have been. They live in the same areas "near almost any body of water", the areas where people are there are lower populations of both. In Africa there are high concentrations of nile monitors near human settlements.
Either way these populations have been high since before people were in either place.
The point is they survive in plain view of large mammalian carnivores in almost every environment because they can, they can defend themselves and live in the same niche as those mammals"

1. tigers and monitors are not competing for the same niche. Monitors compete with much smaller mammalian carnivores, like such as small cats, civets, etc.

2. the one monitor that may even come close to the same niche as a tiger (but not quite) is the Komodo dragon. Ever wonder why its distribution is limited? Check out the distribution of tigers on Komodo, Rinca, Flores etc. Woops, none there!

3. how would you know what the populations of Niles vs small mammalian predators were in specific spots in Africa now, nevermind before humans arrived? Looking at a range map in a book doesn't tell you what's happening in smaller areas, where there may not be as much overlap as there appears.

4. in areas where the monitors coexist with small mammalian predators, or even large mammalian predators, it has nothing to do with their ability to tail whip or win a fight. It has to do with niche separation.

No. 4 is what this discussion was all about in the first place. Arguing about whether or not a monitor could win a fight with a dog lead you to talking about the survival of monitors in different areas. I maintain that survival of monitors in the wild has little to do with the ability to win a fight or tail whip predatory mammals, but the ability for them to find a niche.

...Darwin's reference to 'survival of the fittest' doesn't mean fit like Big Bob at the gym but fit for a particular environment and niche.

Two species of carnivorous animals living in the same area doesn't immediately mean they share the same niche, either. In fact, it's hard to find two species sharing the same niche in the same area because one soon disappears through competition for the same resources. Not through directly fighting with eachother.

np

the point you tried to make was that somehow a monitor's ability or inability to win a fight with a large carnivorous mammal is in some way tied in to their survival/success as a group:

"After all there are many stories from PNG of Croc monitors killing hunting dogs in groups, some by breaking their necks... Varanids have been here for 60 million years almost or very little change in so many environments and locations but why havent mammals made them extinct? hmmm.... Survivors, adapters, and very sucessful predators they are."

I'm pointing out that this has nothing to do with anything. Monitors being successful has nothing to do with being able to fight off dogs or any other carnivore, and I pointed this out by explaining that the most successful radiations of monitors have occurred in areas where there AREN'T many mammalian predators, and this is for a reason.

All this aside, if you ever try chasing a monitor you'll quickly learn that their first and foremost means of defence is running away, either up a tree or down a hole. Their ability to tail whip or bite a dog would have almost nothing to do with their success as a group for 60 million years.

SHvar, one of these days you're going to have to learn that people can disagree with you without 'missing the point' and even understanding exactly what it is you are trying to say. It's called adult discussion.

"if you ever tried chasing a monitor IN THE WILD", so don't start telling me tales of Sobek tail whipping John your neighbour or the dog next door.

But because you seem to believe that any examples given that you disagree with are lies or have nothing to do with whats being discussed and you refuse to acknowledge it, you fall back on that comment and quote the same sentence about "MOST sucessful radiations occur where there are FEW large mamalian predators", yes, Ive read that quote in several books, but Ive also read the rest of the books, where its quoted "SOME species live in plain view around and amongst some of the largest mammalian predators and the highest concentrations of them".

that the survival of monitors in any location has nothing to do with their ability to tailwhip, or win or lose fights with mammalian predators

"MOST successful radiations of monitors have occurred in areas where there AREN'T many mammalian predators, and this is for a reason. "
That doesnt mean ALL or NONE but most species occur in areas where there are very few large mammalian predators. As I said some can stand their ground with lions, packs of wild dogs, etc etc, and in some examples steal parts of kills from them (nile monitor, the same species in question is known to steal parts of killed animals from lions, all the while tail whipping to keep the lion at bay while eating his food). I dont think a monitor that approaches one or several lions to steal their food is affraid they will kill him (and yes there are multiple references to that behavior in Africa).

"I dont think a monitor that approaches one or several lions to steal their food is affraid they will kill him"

You believe that, do you? I know you're convinced of the invincibility of monitors, that much is clear, but if you think a lion would have any difficulty dispatching a monitor you really are dreaming.

don't believe everything you read

It doesn't really matter if you believe tail whipping and fight winning is the reason monitors are successful as a group. Let's just leave it at that.

Oh yes, Dodgy sources you called them..

so now you are going to tell me that any one of those people (never mind all of them) are claiming that a lion would back down to a monitor?

Even if they did, my understanding of evolutionary successes and failures of lineages has nothing to do with fight winning or tail whipping.

I am sure sabre tooth tigers were the meanest baddest mofos when they were around, winning fights with all and sundry. They are now extinct. Platypus, on the other hand, couldn't win a fight with a gerbil. Platypus are still extant.

Go figure.

As I said, SHvar, it really doesn't matter to me if you think winning fights is the reason behind the success of the family varanidae, let's leave it at that.

A 42 (at the time)inch WT named "Blaize", (I have plenty of pics) was coming out from under his owners chair (right in front of me) when "brutus" the 52lb "true red devil" pit lunged and was knocked on his side by a tail swat to the face (Blaize's tail was less than 2 ft long by the way).
I had Sobek in the front lawn when at "Dagens Lizards and Dragons" when Brutus again ran up to be playful,Sobek Swatted and missed him by an inch, from that point on Brutus never approached any lizard closer than 3ft (have you ever been swatted by a 5-6ft monitor (especially a WT? I have once from 2foot away, it left a bruise that went around my leg more than half way for 2 weeks. I was holding the tail in the middle to prevent this but half of the tail did that).
Another example have you ever watched the video of a pack of Dingos attacking a Lace monitor? I have, the monitor is on the offensive almost the whole time and chases them away.
I have 2 WTs both 46 inches to over 6ft, they are both extremely powerful animals, that should never be underestimated. My big female since around 5ft has been able to lift and move our livingroom chairs without much effort.

...is one of the most offensive things I have ever seen. Do you really think a camera crew just 'happened' to be hanging around when something as rare as that happens, or do you reckon they set it up. I know where my money is.

Just wondering...

I can't remember the names of the filmmakers

Nature shows (Croc hunter, Jeff Corwin, etc etc), its all about entertainment and money. But it again shows that a 4-5 foot monitor can stand its ground and drive off a pack of very hungry dingos. I also have seen a whitethroat and a nile stand their ground to hungry lionesses by tail whipping, one to take a piece of their kill and one roaming through. There are a million instances of just how well a monitor can stand its ground, defend itself, and maim or kill animals much larger than they are.
I have one demonstration for anyone questioning this, try to approach, capture, and restrain a 4 ft irrate or scared monitor when they feel cornered. Ive done it more than a few times, Id rather handle venomous snakes or large irrate dogs before a large irrate monitor sometimes, but Ive been dealing with monitors for over 12 years so I guess Ill stick with them.

Blah Blah Blah!!!

I own pits and reptiles, I have also worked with large predatory mammals. It is this sort of pitting this against this attitude that gives me a bad taste in my mouth.

Who cares who would win and what does it benefit me from knowing??

Should we really talk about this and fuel someones fire? I believe both pitbulls have a bad enough reputation now as it is.

I really don't think we need to add to it or give reptiles one as well.

Within every scenario you could come up with a different winner. But who the heck cares??

a shark or a crocodile?
Andre the Giant or the Rock?
a cape buffalo or a gaur?
Muhammed or Moses?
spiderman or batman?
Allah or Jesus?
God or Satan?
Phar Lap or Seabiscuit?

That all you could think of?

How bout a lion or croc.?
gorilla or chimp?
beavis or butthead?

You know what they say sometimes you get the bear sometimes the bear gets you. LOL

on whether you are watching the Japanese or American version of King Kong vs. Godzilla.

In the Japanese version, there is a final Godzilla roar suggesting the battle was a draw rather than a victory for King King...

A full grown Megalodon could take out a crocodile after a long battle. haha

I think the Rock (I'm assuming he's a wrestler) could beat Andre the Giant because Andre is dead and not much of a fight now...

Who would win a one-on-one fight?

George Bush or Saddam?
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^

"Who would win a one-on-one fight? George Bush or Saddam?"

Is beard tugging allowed?

Bush would win. Saddam's ancient.

My housemate thinks his mexican red knee tarantula could win in a fight against a full grown monitor. Apparently its got special hairs. Yeah, right.

.45 or a 9mm?
Kawasaki ZX12 or Suzuki Hayabusa?
Ray Romano or Jerry Seinfeld?
Timmy Turner or Dexter? (for all you parents out there)
Baked potato or Fries?
Motley Crue or Poison?
Retic or Anaconda?
Ali or Tyson?
My five year old or this Boa?
How am I doing?? Hahaha! Hope FR doesn't see this - it's not about the monitors. Oops, did I just say that out loud??

>>a shark or a crocodile?
>>Andre the Giant or the Rock?
>>a cape buffalo or a gaur?
>>Muhammed or Moses?
>>spiderman or batman?
>>Allah or Jesus?
>>God or Satan?
>>Phar Lap or Seabiscuit?

".45 or a 9mm?" My aim is better with the .45
"Kawasaki ZX12 or Suzuki Hayabusa?" Oh baby Hayabusa. Grrrrr.
"Ray Romano or Jerry Seinfeld?" Neither they're both stupid shows.
"Timmy Turner or Dexter?" Dexter all the way!!!
"Baked potato or Fries?" Fries
"Motley Crue or Poison?" 80'z Hairbands Yeah!!! I have both CDz
"Retic or Anaconda?" Retic!!!! I love my Dwarf!
"Ali or Tyson?" Ali, but I really like Holifield.

Here is more for you.............wait. Hhhhmmmmm. What was this supposed to be about again?? Oh that's right, monitors.
Sorry was just trying to help.
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Christine :>~
A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".

>>".45 or a 9mm?" My aim is better with the .45
>>"Kawasaki ZX12 or Suzuki Hayabusa?" Oh baby Hayabusa. Grrrrr.
>>"Ray Romano or Jerry Seinfeld?" Neither they're both stupid shows.
>>"Timmy Turner or Dexter?" Dexter all the way!!!
>>"Baked potato or Fries?" Fries
>>"Motley Crue or Poison?" 80'z Hairbands Yeah!!! I have both CDz
>>"Retic or Anaconda?" Retic!!!! I love my Dwarf!
>>"Ali or Tyson?" Ali, but I really like Holifield.
>>
>>Here is more for you.............wait. Hhhhmmmmm. What was this supposed to be about again?? Oh that's right, monitors.
>>Sorry was just trying to help.
>>-----
>> Christine :>~
>>A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".