Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i would be more than happy to pitch in for a non-profit chameleon breeding awareness association type of program.....

any more thoughts would be nice,, just started a new post becuase i thought it would get more attention

okay....I'm starting to get a complex here! It seems everytime I post anything no one posts after me...Is it coincidence or am I a thread killer??

LOL!
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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

Oh yeah...and I nominate Morgana to be the leader of the anti-inbreeding movement since she is the most incensed about it...LOL!

Maybe we can call it CHAMis(Chameleon Inbreeding Stoppers)??
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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

gj on killing the thread!! LOL

See what I mean???? LOL!!!! Maybe I need to kill off this name and come up with a new one!!

Sorry Ben!
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Raf

1.2 Jacksons Adults (Frank, Patty, Lucille)
0.0.1 Jackson's baby (George, R.I.P. 11/17/2003)
1.1 Nosy Be's (Mars and Roja)
1.1 Veiled - No Names Yet
0.1 Adult Sulcatta (POOPIE,I bought it from Victor at Kobey's in SD)
0.0.2 Baby Sulcattas (frick and frack)
1.0 Home's Hingeback Tortoise (SPEEDY, From Victor as well)
1.2 Red ear slider babies (Hingis, Dingis and Dorkus)
0.0.1 3 toed box turtle - No Name Yet
0.0.1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle - No Name Yet
1.0 Red Siberian Husky (Harley)
0.1 Black Lab (Krissy)
0.1 English Bulldog (Alice)
0.1 Blue Merle Great Dane (Wednesday)
Saltwater Fish and Inverts too

Raf,

Hmmmmmmm, ChamIS is not a bad name. We'll have to consider that one.

Nominate? Heck - we don't need just one leader - we should have a committee instead... or the round table.

We need all the help we can get.
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Morgana-

I have seen the very same thing you are talking about in the KS classifieds over and over again. Mainly with Veiled offspring, some panthers (usually the same people). The problem is I don't think new buyers think to ask about bloodlines until after the fact when they get the itch for breeding if ever. Most of us would never think that what we are buying is brother/sister, mother/son, father/daughter, and so on offspring. We would never think people would do such a thing. Problem is they do and the new buyers don't think to ask. I ask many questions when buying, even some basic ones just to get a feel for the over all care/health/quality of the chameleon. If the questions are not answered to my liking I pass on the chameleon.

As mentioned, the veileds are being mass produced and no one can really be sure what is what when it comes to blood lines unless you can trace the line back to WC. Now everyone can say they are from WC parents so once again the buyer will need to use common sense. Most of us know that there are no legal shipments of WC Veilds coming in anymore and we have to work with what we have, most new buyers would not know that.

This issue is not limited to just the classifieds, buying a pet shop Veiled, you are almost certain you are getting an inbred chameleon. If you buy from a chain store your chances are even greater. Now even buying one chameleon from one shop and one from another doesn't mean you are getting two different bloodlines. These stores buy from two sources one being a wholesaler and two being local private breeders. Chain stores only buy from a wholesaler, they have contracts and only buy certain animals from that source. These stores go for the cheapest stock and lock in a contract for a certain number of animals per store for a set price. These suppliers I can guaranty you have some of the worst husbandry conditions. I have personally seen many wholesale tropical fish warehouses, one that a certain chain store buys there fish from here in my area. You would be so sick to your stomach if you saw the living/holding conditions these salt and fresh water fish are kept in. I have only seen one good local wholesaler that sells freshwater fish to the pet chains have healthy fish. There is a total 180 degree difference in the living/housing conditions that non chain stores buy from. They do pay more for the animals but get much better quality all around.

I can talk on and on about what goes on behind the scene. I don't think things will change, unless the word gets out. Unfortunately when this kind of talk gets going it will inflame the anti-pet people like peta and other groups to turn a good thing bad. I know here in my area chameleons are not sold in the chain petshops. The managers refuse to buy them because they die and the store looses money due to improper housing. But being a large corporation when they spend $1000 of dollars on advertisements for certain animals such as Veiled chameleons the managers have no say. Corporate will order the advertised animal no matter what and make sure each store has them. I have never worked in a chain pet shop, but ask any employee
"why" and they will always say corporate makes us. I give them all a hard time when I find myself in a chain store.

Bottom line is things will need to change through education. You will need to educate the new buyer about what is out there, to do this for every possible buyer will never happen. Impulse buying drives the pet trade, gets them hooked and they will come back for more. All the stores rely on repeat customers coming back to buy supplies and so on. This issue of inbreeding is not just limited to KS classifieds. The more people you educate the better, even though you will never reach everyone.

One of the big pet corporations just bought naming rights to the new ball park going up here. So know there name will be advertised through sporting events on TV, radio, news paper, magazines, cable TV, and so on. One little banner in KS can not compete with such money for advertising. I can not see KS allowing a link to a site that would educate on such a topic. There income comes from the ads that go up. If people feel uneasy about posting them, they will lose money. So I would not get your hopes up on that. With the internet being the top resource for looking up info, that would be the best place to pass the word on.

One option would be to start a bloodline book. This would only consist of private breeders stock. This would keep track of only the chameleons in the private sector not in the warehouses/petshops/chain stores. A seal (graphic) could be produced that is only given out to members who have there stock registered in the book, and will provide updates on offspring. These breeders would be trusted to have only unrelated offspring if the seal (graphic) is displayed on there site/ad. The seal (graphic) would have a number on it that can be looked up on the site to trace the parents and the breeder to make sure things are accurate and no one is abusing the system. This would be similar to dogs with papers. Of course there will need to be a small fee to register your chameleons to keep the site up, and there would have to be some amount of trust and oversight by other members to approve new members stock. This could be a random draw of a certain number of members. The system would have to be widely excepted to do any good. There will need to be some set rules that are approved by the members. No one would be excluded from registering, anyone can but only the chameleons the members feel are clean would be approved.

This would be the only way to keep the best records on what breeder is selling clean bloodlines and ones that are not or are not certain they are. When you the breeder sell offspring you will have to give a seal (graphic) with your number on it along with the chameleon. When that buyer wants to register his/her chameleon bloodlines the seal (graphic) with number tracing back to the breeder will be notified to check if the bloodline is pure and then that chameleon can be registered as pure by that person.

The main thing is no one person can have absolute power over approving and not approving bloodlines, it must be a group effort to keep the trust high in the chameleons that are registered. The site would have a small photo of the chameleon and your contact info. People looking for a certain chameleon can contact you about purchasing offspring. So the small registration fee for keeping the site up would also ack as an advertisement for your bloodline. There would have to be regular updates to keep good records of the registered memebers.

It is not much, we can not act like the FDA and inspect everyone. This is just an idea off the top of my head. The site would not promote any one idea other then the importance of clean bloodlines. No profit would be made all would be used for the site and papers. Most of if not all of the chameleon breeders use this forum from time to time. So we the people reading this would be the ones agreeing to such a system. We could even use a group site like Yahoo or MSN to make the site free of charge and eliminate a registration fee, just need some one to donate the time to make the site, and agree on a numbered seal (graphic) for univeral use.

With out something like or similar to this idea I dont think you will see a change. Once the word gets out that such a site exist it should help in limiting the number of inbred chameleons. If the breeder cant make money from there breeding efforts they will change there ways to make money. If people only buy from registerd bloodlines or the majority do (you will never have a perfect system) it can help stop the down fall. With the WC import numbers getting smaller and smaller we will soon have to work with what we have. A system used with pure bred dogs may help or goal here to keep bloodlines pure.

An idea for the seal would be something like a chameleon eye with the name of the site around the eye. The seal would be a circle shape and have a box with the number of the chameleon.

Sorry about the LONG post, you asked for ideas, you have to start somewhere.
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John W. Lucas

CHAMELEON PARADISE

CHAMELEONS ONLINE E-ZINE AUTHOR

Feeding Baby Chameleons
Caging Baby Chameleons

got SILKWORMS!

Photo © Chameleon Paradise 2003

John,

You posted after I got the same idea... a forum on Yahoo. I named it "Chameleon Registration Network" CRN for short.
What do you think?

We have kept a "stud book" since we began... it is the best idea. I have pictures of every mother and father - and several from the clutches. I have a file cabinet full of stuff - sales receipts; etc.

Truthfully, I think this is the best idea yet. Want to help?

I also agree - we need a group - not just a couple of individuals to monitor this thing. So, are you in?

I will be working on a logo for the group page this week, and the "seal" sounds like a great idea.
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Morgana-

Yes of course I will help. Email me what you have in mind and where the site is to get things going. Talk to you soon!
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John W. Lucas

CHAMELEON PARADISE

CHAMELEONS ONLINE E-ZINE AUTHOR

Feeding Baby Chameleons
Caging Baby Chameleons

got SILKWORMS!

Photo © Chameleon Paradise 2003

i think the idea of an "AKC"registry in the dog world, for those that don't know)is an excellent idea, but how do you get the word out that there is an organization that will registar your pure/not inbred chameleon? how can you make sure that the animal that is registared is a pure breed? and how can you get people to "opt" in to this? i think most people really like, at least the idea of having a pure animal, but there will always be those out there that will continue to inbreed their chameleons or other reptiles. i really think an "AKC" type of organization is a great idea ,but how do THEY(the AKC) get it to work?

dennis

I'm in also someone just let me know what to do. I think if Morgana broke out some pictures of crippled (inbred) chameleons, it would hit everyone hard and make everyone know the effects it can have. I think that would be a slap in the face for alot of people.
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

it has the potential to make buying/keeping reptiles in general harder to for responsible hobbyists and breeders. by posting picture after picture of defects and deformities of inbreeding, this only allows groups like PETA to twist the truth and use the pictures as propaganda to prevent "you", the responsible keeper from keeping the reptiles you want. i have had three encounters(2 at rodeos and 1 at an outdoor/hunting show)with animal rights people and evertime the have twisted the truths and used pictures to get there point across. IF picutrs are used i would hope it is done with caution.

dennis

John,

The Yahoo forum is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ChameleonRegistryNetwork/

Come on over and let's plan the development.
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Hi Morgana... Interesting thread... who will do the blood testing.

Hi Pam,

Actually, if it ever came to that, I am sure Ivan would be very capable.
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Ya, Ivan could get a new job, Same field...why not (evel grin)

Morgana,
Chris Anderson is already starting a program that is very similiar to yours. It is for tracking bloodlines. You may want to email him about it to get more details.
Paul

>>Morgana,
>> Chris Anderson is already starting a program that is very similiar to yours. It is for tracking bloodlines. You may want to email him about it to get more details.
>>Paul

Well, Jason Descamps is the main force behind it, I'm just helping. I think that the mentality of this thread is excellent but i think starting another system would complicate and hinder all of our efforts. This program will be much better than a yahoo group so I have to ask that for the sake of success, you all hold off and support this system Jason and I are working on as it will be much better in the long term and for genetic lines, the long term is what is important. Thanks,
Chris
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Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

Hello everyone.
I have been working on a registry for 2 months now. My site is very well orginized and thought up. It is very professional and I'm sure everyone will be pleased with it. I was going to waite till the beginning of 2004 to present this to everyone but in light of all the hype that this little thread has I will present early. My site should be 90% done by next week so please be patient. I will present everything then and I'm sure everyone will be very pleased. I had another name chosen for the site but if everyone likes CRN I would be happy to use it if that is ok. Please let me know.
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From Sunny Florida
Jovana's kids listed below
1.1 Veileds
1.0 Ambanja Panther
1.1 Tamatave Panther