Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lately I have had this question surface in the back of my mind more and more and I finally decided to post a thread about it. Many will say that to possess and care for snakes in and of itself chalks up to genuine experience. I suppose in a way it may be a form of experience, but what about the variables?

What if someone keeps numerous snakes of many different species but is the type of "herper" that seldom removes the snakes from their cages and predominately uses a hook to move the snakes about. I'd say this certainly ranks as experience with a hook,.. but very little with the snakes themselves.

Then say there is a guy (or gal) that has only one or two snakes,.. but handles them often, for long periods of time, virtually every day and learns much about these individual snakes. I'd say enough could be learned from a few snakes with intense study to gain a working common sense with snakes in general, at least of that species or genus. I'd also say that this ranks as more of a genuine form of "experience" than the former scenario keeper.

Someone once theorized that herp experience can be calculated by each snake owned for a year as counting as a single year of experience. (if my memory serves me correctly). And that by this standard if one kept 20 snakes for even a year it was tantamount to 20 years true experience. I can see the logic in this method, but I can also see a pardoxical flaw. I have noticed that the more snakes I acquire, that the less individual time I give to each of the snakes overall. By this I mean the time that I would otherwise be holding or studying, taming or other individual attentions I lavish them with. So it seems, for me at least, that there is a point which is reached in large colonies where there is a specific ammount of time devoted to the collection, as a whole, regardless of the number of snakes. So I think this method of a year per snake makes sense up to a point but not much beyond this point. So if one reaches this point and a number of their snakes are maintained but otherwise ignored,.. it can't possibly equal additional experience.

Anyhow,.. perhaps I am tired,.. these are just my thoughts. What are your thoughts on this?
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani

The Barkers highlight this concept of snake years on their webpage. I think that it is a relatively good system for accounting of basic experience and this is my reason as why. Someone can keep one solitary animal and give it all the attention that they can and spend all there free time with that animal. That same person can have absolutly no true concept of good husbandry and chances are that one solitary animal might live a long life. Now if this same practice of improper husbandry skills was applied to a large colony of animals then undoubtedly deaths would result. Therefore, following these same principles the more snakes one owns they must learn better practices and apply them. What might work for one creature will not work for masses unless it is ideal.
I have often thought it would be wise to develope some form of tracking experience for hot keepers and as they progress through experience levels they can move up to more dangerous animals. Anyway, just my thoughts. Todd

And yes - there are exceptions to everything.

I have listed to a number of experienced keepers giving varying advice on many different topics. I can safely say that most people who have been in the field for many years, cunjure up their own way of doing things. If the animals in question live, breed and act normally, than they are not wrong. On the other hand, another keeper of that species could say something completely different, and still have success. They too, are not wrong.

On the other hand, someone can keep a single animal of that particular species for 10 years, but are they right? Well, to keep it alive then yes. However it might need different treatment for breeding.

Then there is the question of 'is the animal happy'? Well, fact is, no body knows, and no body will ever know. My philosophy is that if the animal is alive, feed, drinks, breeds, and does its natural things, such as wonder round scenting etc... than I class it as 'happy'.

Personally, I would say that someone keeping 20 snakes for one year, has more experience than someone having a snake for 20 years.

A perfect example is fish keeping. Somone can keep a fish tanke on a same routine for 10 years. On the other hand, I would work in a fish shop for only 10 days and gain more knowledge and experience about fish keeping and proper tecnhiques than the other person.

Its all relative, take in what you like, but do not necessarily believe everything. Make up your own mind and find the methods that work best for you.

That would be like asking someone which car/truck is the best on the market,they all have different variables to determine what makes one better than the other,same goes for experience of keeping herps.Lets say that one individual keeps nothing but colombian boas,whereas another individual keeps nothing but jungle carpets.They both would be experienced in the keeping,breeding,housing,feeding,etc of the one individual snake but probably wouldnt have a clue of what the requirements were for the other individual.Now if you take someone that has kept retics,anacondas,burms,etc (large snakes) but has never kept smaller species like b/ps,blood pythons,spotted pythons,etc then they are what i would consider very experienced in keeping the larger species but i wouldnt ask them say a ? about what to keep a blood python in as an adult.

As for the length of time one keeps an individual snake/snakes in their particular care,that would mean that they were experienced with those individual snakes but wouldnt constitute them to tell everyone that all snakes of that species are tame.Again it all boils down to the individual snake as well as the keeper.People have different ways of doing different things,some are right others are wrong but it still is i guess what you would call an experience.One thing i've learned in my time of keeping reptiles of all kinds from snakes to monitors is that no matter how much experience you think you gain from one certain individual animal there will always be something else that that same animal will eventually make you learn,sometimes the hard way other times the easy way but you will still learn from that one individual for as long as you keep it.

Now what i think would rank among the highest of experinece would be zoo keepers,herpetologists (licensed not self appointed)big breeders,small breeders (with at least 10 years experience under their belt either past or present)old timers who were around when importation was all there was,etc. now that to me would be enough experience to pass down to a many of a generation of young herpers as well as newbies alike.Even still the old timers are still learning the same as the newbies its just that they have been around longer so they could be considered highly experienced.Regards Bill McLeod

I agree with Bill. There is no substitute for REAL experience...and not just experience, but proven experience. I know many folks who have kept herps for a long time but have never kept a sinle one of their herps for more than a few years (boredom, lack of commitment, etc.)....some of these animals are kept in deplorable conditions. Those who have proven themselves to be committed to the hobby (and in my case, profession) have shown themselves to be people of passion and genuine care for the animals (and I am not patting myself in the back here, just making a point). I have FAR more respect for someone who has kept the same burm, for example, for 20 years than someone who claims to be an expert because they keep many snakes but none of them on a long term basis or in a manner that would be perceived as being knowledgeable (and there are a plethora of people like that on these forums...always looking for something better). Sure that person who has kept only one snake wouldn't necessarily be seen as an expert, however, they possess something that few owners do...committment. They have learned how to develop strong observation skills, intuition, instinct and a bond that few herp owners will ever possess. They have learned the secrets of establishing a special bond with an animal that few people will give credit to that these types of bonds can take place....but this is different than the person who keeps one burm on a very short term basis, and does it incorrectly, and then pops off in a forum that they are some self professed expert; it is fairly easy to see through these charades. It truly amazes me as to how many people keep certain herps, not just burms, without having ANY idea about that animal's natural history, conservation efforts and some of the field and in-situ research being done....makes me wonder what people's real motivation is in owning an exotic pet. Well, I'm rambling and not even sure what my point is....

I agree with Bill too in many of his points and quite frankly I feel that it is one of his best posts in my personal memory. Very insightful and intuitive.

I too despise the type of person who bores of their herps in short time and sells or trades them off for something else only to get rid of that in a few months or years. To me this shows a lack of respect for the animals and for our duty as keepers to provide them with a good home. As for me,.. when I get snakes I give them names and bond with them as much as I can and I consider them to be pets. And as a general rule I don't sell pets or trade them off when their 'superficial attribute' novelty wears off. Because by even just a few weeks they are much more to me than just a pretty pattern or a unique color.

What I was alluding to in my original post in this thread was that I feel that people that spend a lot of time with their pets get MUCH more true experience than those that never interact with their snakes and just toss them a meal from time to time. As for me personally, I spend OODLES of time with my pythons and boas and other reptiles. As I don't have to work a real job, my time is my own and whenever I am not here I am likely spending quality time with my favorite snakes. I would venture to say that I spend at least 10 hours out of each day interacting with my snakes. I love them all with all my heart and never tire of spending time with them.

I particularly like this statement in your post Rob; "Sure that person who has kept only one snake wouldn't necessarily be seen as an expert, however, they possess something that few owners do...committment. They have learned how to develop strong observation skills, intuition, instinct and a bond that few herp owners will ever possess." I think that there is a lot to this scenario too that is often overlooked or not acknowledged and due credit is oft not given to the single herp, albeit long term, herp keeper. I touched on this in my original post as well and I think that one can certainly develop a working common sense with snakes in general even from working with only one or two snakes for a very long period. There is not a snake species on earth that I would hesitate to work with even though I have not personally kept even 10% of the existing known species.

I guess the overall point is that I just get a little sick of the people that keep many snakes, but never take them out of their cages, never hold them, and never REALLY learn about them. It's just a snake in a cage and quite frankly any moron can do that. Getting in close and personal, spending actual quality time with them and getting to know the snakes inside and out,... now that's a different story. And I think this is the only way it should be.

>>I agree with Bill. There is no substitute for REAL experience...and not just experience, but proven experience. I know many folks who have kept herps for a long time but have never kept a sinle one of their herps for more than a few years (boredom, lack of commitment, etc.)....some of these animals are kept in deplorable conditions. Those who have proven themselves to be committed to the hobby (and in my case, profession) have shown themselves to be people of passion and genuine care for the animals (and I am not patting myself in the back here, just making a point). I have FAR more respect for someone who has kept the same burm, for example, for 20 years than someone who claims to be an expert because they keep many snakes but none of them on a long term basis or in a manner that would be perceived as being knowledgeable (and there are a plethora of people like that on these forums...always looking for something better). Sure that person who has kept only one snake wouldn't necessarily be seen as an expert, however, they possess something that few owners do...committment. They have learned how to develop strong observation skills, intuition, instinct and a bond that few herp owners will ever possess. They have learned the secrets of establishing a special bond with an animal that few people will give credit to that these types of bonds can take place....but this is different than the person who keeps one burm on a very short term basis, and does it incorrectly, and then pops off in a forum that they are some self professed expert; it is fairly easy to see through these charades. It truly amazes me as to how many people keep certain herps, not just burms, without having ANY idea about that animal's natural history, conservation efforts and some of the field and in-situ research being done....makes me wonder what people's real motivation is in owning an exotic pet. Well, I'm rambling and not even sure what my point is....
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"If I had 365 enemies it would only take a year out of my life to settle all scores." Mia Miselfani