Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Earlier I posted that my veiled chameleon clutch of eggs was hatching... I had 3 successful out of 3 hatchings..

now the number is up to 9 of 9.. and there are at least 12 coming out strong.

It looks like I might have a 99% hatch rate with this big clutch of 61 eggs!

It looks good so far... I will post pics at a later date.

Vlad.

np

thanks a lot.. actually so far its been REAAALLY good...

13 out of 13 (and a lot more half way out)

I had a small scare when one couldnt pry his eyes open (the slit was closed shut).. he/she was walking blind for a while until i wetted his eyes, and he/she rubbed them against a branch...enabling him/her to see..

So far so good... (hoping for 100% hatch rate)

61 eggs? wow, good luck, and congrats

thanks.

and BTW, my female had 3 clutches... 59, 61 and 63.. only the 61 egg clutch was fertile.. the rest were unfertile...which sucked..

and the reason for BIG clutches is NUTRITION!!! It is SOOOOOO important to feed your chameleons (in this case females) good food.. (fruits, veggies, and insects) not to mention the added powders that you should sprinkle on the crickets (from time to time)...

healthy chameleon = happy owner = healthy babies = etc = etc

Vlad.

>> thanks.
>>
>>and BTW, my female had 3 clutches... 59, 61 and 63.. only the 61 egg clutch was fertile.. the rest were unfertile...which sucked..
>>
>>
>>and the reason for BIG clutches is NUTRITION!!! It is SOOOOOO important to feed your chameleons (in this case females) good food.. (fruits, veggies, and insects) not to mention the added powders that you should sprinkle on the crickets (from time to time)...
>>
>>healthy chameleon = happy owner = healthy babies = etc = etc
>>
>>Vlad.

Vlad,

You're shortening the life of your chameleons terribly. The practice of over feeding to enduce large clutches is dangerous. It causes Calcium deficiencies under normal supplementation and increased supplementation to compensate for the large clutches can create even worse problems if not perfect. This practice is a number 1 cause of egg binding and metobolic bone disease (from lack of calcium to the female as all is being used by the eggs). Gravid females need to be fed enough for maintenance to produce normal sized clutches, not over feed to create huge clutches. It may seem logical and like a good idea but it isn't, it's bad for the animals and it can create problems with the hatchlings. What temp did you incubate at and what was the incubation time?

Chris
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Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

Chris,

I dont remember saying anywhere that I was overfeeding my female chameleon. I said that nutrition is essential for a healthy 'normal' clutch.. if my female had consistently over 50 eggs in each clutch, i would consider it 'normal'. Now normal is different for each individual chameleon (relative to size, cage and environmantal conditions, etc).

I monitored her food intake when she was culturing eggs in her belly so that the clutch (and the stress that comes with each size of a clutch) is minimal! THe worst thing that i would want for my chameleon is stress (obviously).

IMHO if the food intake is good and of quality, then i see why you shoudnt get a larger than 'normal' clutch. Plus, to prevent MBD, nutrition (and its proper absorption) is essential...

.. the eggs were incubated at room temp (a bit higher than regular room temp, since my house is always warmer than usual).. and the incubation time was from May 11 to Dec 11 (exactly to the day)..so 7 months...

and so far... its been a 100% hatch rate..(keeping my fingers crossed)

Vlad.

"I dont remember saying anywhere that I was overfeeding my female chameleon."

If your female is producing that many eggs, I'd seriously consider looking at the amount you're feeding her when she is producing eggs. How much and how often are you feeding her?

"I said that nutrition is essential for a healthy 'normal' clutch.."

If you take animal nutrition courses at some point, you will find that animals fed too far above maintenance nutrition in early pregnancy experience increased mortality of the offspring. In reptiles and birds, the female usually suffers before the babies can. This is often in the form of death my egg binding or malnutrition, often MBD (not because you aren't supplementing well but because of the demand for calcium for the eggs). Optimum feeding during gravidity varies based on the period of pregnancy. After breeding and during early gestation, it is best to feed close to maintenance level with slightly better supplementation to ensure that the clutch is not too large. Just to clarify, maintenance doesn't mean what you normally would feed, it is a term indicating the amount of feed needed to provide what the animal needs to maintain body condition. These animals will produce what they have the nutrients for during egg production. If they have an excess of nutrients, you will find them producing more than they can realistically handle for their own health and possibily the stability of the clutch.

"if my female had consistently over 50 eggs in each clutch, i would consider it 'normal'."

No, all that means is that in early pregnancy she was being fed in excess and produced as many eggs as her metabolism would allow. The fact that it was consistently around 50 just means that you are feeding her the same amount as you did the last time. "Usually clutches consist of 25-30 eggs and overfed females will produce even larger clutches that endanger their lives and certainly shorten them." (Davison, Linda. Chameleons: Their Care and Breeding. Handcock House Publishers. 1997. Pg. 105)

"Now normal is different for each individual chameleon (relative to size, cage and environmantal conditions, etc)."

True there is a lot of individual variation and species variation relating to their genetic potential. 50 eggs in a clutch is not safe and in nature, would rarely happen as the nutrition doesn't support it. In your case, the excess nutrients create more eggs than the female can safeley handle multiple clutches of while maintaining her longevity.

"I monitored her food intake when she was culturing eggs in her belly so that the clutch (and the stress that comes with each size of a clutch) is minimal!"

How many crickets and how often. What was your supplementation schedule?

"THe worst thing that i would want for my chameleon is stress (obviously)."

Good to hear that you came to that conclusion, too bad it was after you insisted on keeping your C. werneri together. Please understand that I'm trying to look out for your chameleon here. The only way I can help you ensure that she has the life she should is if you answer my questions about her and consider what I'm saying.

"IMHO if the food intake is good and of quality, then i see why you shoudnt get a larger than 'normal' clutch."

It isn't completely related to quality or the fact that they are eating The nutrition available in relation to what they need is the issue. What I'm trying to explain to you is she is producing what her metabolism allows her to, not what she can handle over multiple clutches. I'm not saying starve her at all. There is a place between dangerous (during egg production) and underfeeding and the key is to locate this point.

"Plus, to prevent MBD, nutrition (and its proper absorption) is essential..."

The correct absorption of vitamines and minerals is essential for prevent MBD. This gets into your supplementation and gut loading. Up to this point, the eggs have formed fine and she was able to pass them so the supplementation isn't my concern, the long term effects on your female are.

"the eggs were incubated at room temp (a bit higher than regular room temp, since my house is always warmer than usual).. and the incubation time was from May 11 to Dec 11 (exactly to the day)..so 7 months..."

7-9 is fairly typical. Shorter incubation times often indicate that the temps are too high and the neonates often suffer.

"and so far... its been a 100% hatch rate..(keeping my fingers crossed)"

Congrates. I'm glad the babies are hatching. Its always a nice time when babies are hatching. I wish you luck with them, i just want to make you aware of the effects on the female. BTW, its only a 100% hatch rate cause you are only counting the eggs that have hatched thus far...its like saying what you were looking for was in the last place you looked, of course it was, why would you look for something if you found it already...sorry, thats me just being technical, I don't mean anything by that.

Regards,

Chris
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Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

Vlad,

How are your C. werneri doing? I seem to remember you're female was gravid at one point right? How did that go?

John

well, sadly, my female died because (and this is pure speculation, although there isn't any other indication that she could have died for any other reason) she couldnt deposit her infertile eggs and she suffocated.

This is even more sad.

THe male was left, by himself in a 22g reptarium (with optimal conditions, IMHO) for a period of 1 or 2 months (not sure exactly). Without a single clue, he died abruptly...in my hands...(I watched him slowly die in the palms of my hands)..that morning before he died, he ate and drank water normally, behaved normally, didnt have any external injuries or diseases (although he did have a broken toe, but that wouldnt have made an impact, since it happened a while ago)..

so in summary it was a bad, and painful experience... sadly to say...

>>well, sadly, my female died because (and this is pure speculation, although there isn't any other indication that she could have died for any other reason) she couldnt deposit her infertile eggs and she suffocated.
>>
>>This is even more sad.
>>
>>THe male was left, by himself in a 22g reptarium (with optimal conditions, IMHO) for a period of 1 or 2 months (not sure exactly). Without a single clue, he died abruptly...in my hands...(I watched him slowly die in the palms of my hands)..that morning before he died, he ate and drank water normally, behaved normally, didnt have any external injuries or diseases (although he did have a broken toe, but that wouldnt have made an impact, since it happened a while ago)..
>>
>>so in summary it was a bad, and painful experience... sadly to say...

First off, a 22gal repterium is too small for a male C. werneri. Secondly, I seem to remember that you housed the male and female together on the recommendation of a friend of yours. Please tell me they weren't both i the 22 gallon repterium!
Chris
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Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

22g is too small for a dwarf warneri chameleon? A reptarium that is standing vertically upright?

and the two were housed in a the biggest reptarium that you can buy (i think its over 250 gallons).. that even had a warm water mister..

Vlad.

>>22g is too small for a dwarf warneri chameleon? A reptarium that is standing vertically upright?
>>
>>and the two were housed in a the biggest reptarium that you can buy (i think its over 250 gallons).. that even had a warm water mister..
>>
>>
>>Vlad.

Yes, a 22gal repterium standing vertically is too small for a C. werneri. That inclosure is 13.5" x 13.5" x 25". It would need to be about twice that size in one of the bottom dimensions and a taller in the verticle dimension.

I still would not recommend housing two C. werneri together in a 260 gallon repterium when the female is gravid (cause she was at the time). Its not good for the animal and puts her under unneeded stress.

Chris
-----
Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

Congratulations, do you have any pics of the hatching process, babies, mom, ect.? Those are always fun to look at. Good luck with all those babies.

~Walter~

Thanks.. i will have some pictures soon of the mom (Isis) and its numerous babies... (21 of 21 successful so far)

Vlad.