Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know about Drymarchon chloroticus? I found reference to this (sub?)species, but don't know what it is. I assume the full taxonomy would be Drymarchon corais chloroticus.

Never heard of it. My guess is it was a name for one of the subs that was eventually changed.

I know there has been a lot of evolution of the taxonomy.

The eastern indigo was originally called "Coluber couperi"
then "Spilotes couperi"....

and the melanurus was known as "melanocercus"

Is this from an old literature record I assume?

It's actually from this exerpt from the Drymarchon Bibliography section posted by John Gunn at indigosnakes.com:

Landy, Macreay J., David A. Lanebartel, Edward O. Moll and Hobart M. Smith. 1966. A collection of snakes from Volcán Tacaná, Chiapas, Mexico. Journal of the Ohio Herpetological Society. 5 (3):93-101. Mexico; Chiapas; Adelphicos quadrivirgatus; Coniophanes fissidens; Drymarchon chloroticus; Drymarchon margaritiferus; Geophis cancellatus; Geophis nasalis; Imantodes cenchoa; Lampropeltis triangulum; ninia diademata; Ninia sebae; Oxybelis aeneus; Pliocercus elapoides; Rhadinaea lachrymans; Scaphiodontophis zeteki; Trimetopon hannsteini; Tropidodipsas sartorii; Xenodon rabdocephalus; Micrurus latifsciatus; Micrurus nigrocinctus

It's from 1966, so it really shouldn't be all that outdated. OK, OK, I know that 1966 was a long time ago (unless you were born in the early '50's like me)...but not so long ago that this taxonomy should be that obscure. I've never heard of Drymarchon chloroticus before. The paper discusses reptiles of the Chiapas region of Mexico. I wonder if it's old taxonomy for maybe unicolor? I'm not sure if rubidus occurs that far south (bordering Guatemala). Strangely, it also mentions margaritiferus (margaritae). I though Margarita Island Cribos were exclusively from Isla de Margarita off the coast of Venezuela.

to Drymobius chloroticus. Here's a link to a photo:Photo

It is some relative of Drymobius margaritiferus, obviously racer-like and definitely not Drymarchon. Maybe the listing in the biliography was a typo for both animals and should have read Drymobius instead of Drymarchon. This classification is credited to Cope (way before 1966). Was Drymobius ever lumped under Drymarchon?

What you have just mentioned is indeed a typo. Drymobius Chloroticus was first described by Pope in 1886. It is closely related to Drymobius margaritiferus (jeweled racer) However, it's range is not as extensive. D. chloroticus can be found in El Salvadore, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and Mexico.
This link will offer you more information, if you are interested:

http://www.herpbreeder.com/worldspecies/Snakes/colubrids/drymobius.htm

I noticed that genus Drymarchon seems to be absent from the Colubridae listings ??

It's there, Dean. It just doesn't have a link associated with it. I assume that means they don't have any specific data for that genus. Look at the top of the page that this link link takes you to and click on the word COLUBRIDAE. That brings up a big list. It's then listed under Colubrinae.

Looks like they are using WW's new taxonomy...
but...seems like there's some things missing.

ex: orizibensis and erebennus not listed in Mexico.

Not to be picky...this is an awesome reference site.

Yeah...nothing's perfect though, huh? As a matter of fact, it was a mistake that led into this discussion.

I'm starting to see more and more people using Wolfgang's proposed taxonomy...maybe it's going to become the "accepted" taxonomy?

Yeah, I saw this site too, while I was searching but it didn't have a photo of D. chloroticus.

The species was actually first described by Edward Drinker Cope in 1860, not Pope (not that it really matters...). Cope was a Herpetologist, Ichthyologist, Mammologist and Paleontologist and one of the founders of the Neo-Lamarckian school of thought on the evolutionary process. He served as Professor of Zoology and comparative anatomy at The University of Pennsylvania and Haverford College, was editor of The American Naturalist, and led expidetions for the U.S. Geological Survey in it's formative years. The journal Copeia is named after him.

Clifford Pope was a 20th century herpetologist that did the bulk of his work with asian species in the 1920's and 1930's. He described several new species also..one in particular was Pope's Tree Viper Trimeresurus popeiorum. He also described several new amphibian species from China.

>>Clifford Pope was a 20th century herpetologist that did the bulk of his work with asian species in the 1920's and 1930's. He described several new species also..one in particular was Pope's Tree Viper Trimeresurus popeiorum.

To set the record straight, Pope did not name T. popeiorum (which would have been a cardinal sin - it is regarded as very bad manners to name a species after oneself ), Malcolm Smith named it after him and his wife.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
-----
WW Home

You are correct, of course. Nobody names an animal after himself, as you pointed out out, that would be bad form. It was named after Clifford Pope. I should have been more clear in what I was saying there...did not mean to insinuate that he named it after himself. But, I think Pope first described the species, didn't he?

>>You are correct, of course. Nobody names an animal after himself, as you pointed out out, that would be bad form. It was named after Clifford Pope. I should have been more clear in what I was saying there...did not mean to insinuate that he named it after himself. But, I think Pope first described the species, didn't he?

Describing = naming in taxonomic lingo, so be aware of the potential for confusion.

I doubt Pope would have encountered it in China, since it does not seem to occur there. I honestly don't know whether he was aware of the species at all.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
-----
WW Home

Yeah, I know that describing is naming.. I could be wrong about it, but I thought that he first described it and named it as something else, then someone else came along and proposed new taxonomy that named it after him.

He did a lot of work in Southeast Asia with Trimeresurus also, as well as working with Zimmerman and Klauber in the '40's on Rattlesnakes in the Southwestern U.S.

I know in the early '30's he did a paper for the American Museum of Natural History Herpetology dept on the green pit vipers of Southeast Asia:

No. 620. Clifford H. Pope and Sarah H. Pope. 1933 A study of the green pit-vipers of southeastern Asia and Malaysia, commonly identified as Trimeresurus gramineus (Shaw), with description of a new species from peninsular India. 12 pp.

>>Yeah, I know that describing is naming.. I could be wrong about it, but I thought that he first described it and named it as something else, then someone else came along and proposed new taxonomy that named it after him.

OK, tracked it down as well. Pope & Pope referred to what we call popeiorum as Trimeresurus gramineus (and characterised the species), and rejected the original Peninsular Indian type locality of T. gramineus. Instead, they described the Indian species as a new species, T. occidentalis.

Later workers then reverted to the use of gramineus for the Peninsular Indian form, and Smith named the NE.India - Malaysia form T. popeiorum in honour of the Popes.

So, in summary, Pope described T. popeiorum in the non-nomenclatural sense, whereas Smith described it in the nomenclatural sense, naming it after Pope and his wife.

Confused? I'm getting there...

Cheers,

Wolfgang
-----
WW Home

OK...so I'm not going crazy. (Well, I guess this doesn't really prove THAT, does it?) I thought that's what I remembered....

Thanks for looking it up. I've been searching everything I could find and couldn't remember where it was.

if it is indeed a Drymarchon...that would be the region to expect melanurus and possibly unicolor...but you may be right in that is is simply a mistake and is not referring to Drymarchon at all.

I don't know if the 2 genera were ever lumped together.

As for margaritae, I have read at least 2 sources and spoke to several herpetologists that claim this sub. was decribed from a SINGLE ANIMAL found on the west side of isla margarita, and probably does not really exist. It was likley a stray corais corais that made it to the island somehow...

>>As for margaritae, I have read at least 2 sources and spoke to several herpetologists that claim this sub. was decribed from a SINGLE ANIMAL found on the west side of isla margarita, and probably does not really exist. It was likley a stray corais corais that made it to the island somehow...

Yeah, margaritae is a bit of a mystery. It was, as you say, described from a single specimen. None have been found since, although, to be fair, I don't know whether anyone has actually made much of an effort to look for additional material. However, its colour and pattern differ considerably from that of corais, in particular in having a belly that gets darker further back (whereas that of D. corais is light all along the body). I doubt it was a stray D. corais. Another possibility is that it may just be a differentiated local population of D. corais. What one does with such differentiated populations (no status? subspecies? species?) is very much a matter of dispute among taxonomists.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
-----
WW Home

Somebody has to send ME down there to look for them.

I was there once while in the Navy, but didn't know anything about them or I would've spent my time herping rather than drinking! Actually, I left a very nice ring sitting on the sink in the airport. Anyone interested in snake/ring hunting?

Seems like the island is a pretty nice vacation spot.

What's say we all get together, bring the wives and let them sun-bathe...and find ourselves some cribos !!

Seriously...I'll go and I don't think I'd have a hard time convincing the spousal unit to go.

I'll just have to level with her and let her know I'll be doing a lot of herping and see how that goes over.

Now...getting permission from the government to hunt herps...
WW would be the expert on that.

I have no experience herping outside the US.
I'll bet there's lots of cool herps on the island, even if we'd get skunked on cribos.

>>I'll just have to level with her and let her know I'll be doing a lot of herping and see how that goes over.
>>
>>Now...getting permission from the government to hunt herps...
>>WW would be the expert on that.

Afraid so - nearly impossible if you are thinking of exporting living specimens, DNA samples or anything like that. The bureaucracy involved is an absolute nightmare.

I don't know what the system is if you just want to look for one and either stick it into a Venezuelan museum or just photograph it and let it go again - that seems to work for some researchers who do work in Venezuela. Of course it's not as good as actually getting some juicy genetic info...

Cheers,

Wolfgang
-----
WW Home

Photos and field data is better than nothing!

I'd sure hate to get busted for smuggling snake blood out of the country.

Yes, I guess capturing, taking data, photographing and releasing would have to be good enough.

I wonder if you can get good DNA info from something like a ventral scale clipping?

I'd hate to actually find the animals and not have anything real to contribute to science.

I'm sure there's probably enough DNA in the scales...but, that's another question for Wolfgang.

That would be even worse..doing jail time for smuggling snake scales.

Now how could they prove what a couple clipped ventral scales in a plastic container were?

Blood could be a problem...but I can't see anyone even giving a couple scale clippings a second thought.

PS:

I once spent a night in jail because my dog got loose in the neighborhood. Actually, it was my GIRLFRIENDS dog... (my wife now)

and they friggin arrested me, cuffed me, and I spent the night in jail. No kidding. Not one of my prouder moments.

They put you in JAIL because a dog got loose???? What kind if sh$t is that??? Where were you when that happened? Nazi Germany? That's ridiculous. What did the dog do, eat somebody's car?

I guess noone cares about my lost ring.

We'll find your ring for you. As a matter of fact...why don't you come along and find it yourself?

We'd have a better chance of finding a pair of cribos each and sasquatch than getting your ring back...

but...what the hell we can give it a shot.

now...how the hell would you get sasquatch DNA past customs??

Here's a better question. How the hell would you get Sasquatch DNA? Maybe from the saliva he leaves on your a$$.....

why don't you think we'll find it Dean? It's only been about 17 years. I'll bet it's still sitting right where I left it, on the sink in the airport bathroom where I took it off to wash my hands!

oh hey that reminds me of the time i was on margerita island and i saw a cribo with a ring stuck on it..
-----
Jaylon ( bigJ)

sounds like another new ssp. I think we should call it the ringed cribo. Drymarchon corais annulata

Eric

.
-----
Jaylon ( bigJ)

>>Now how could they prove what a couple clipped ventral scales in a plastic container were?
>>
>>Blood could be a problem...but I can't see anyone even giving a couple scale clippings a second thought.

Dean,

The legal situation would be exactly the same, irrespective of whether it's a scale of a blood sample or anything else - you are exporting genetic material.

Of course, one could hypothesise that the chances of anyone at customs finding or noticing or worrying about a very small tube with a few scale clips in alcohol are probably rather infinitesimal. Obviously, that would not make it legal, and it's not something one should try.

A reasonably fresh shed or part thereof taken home as a souvenir would be another option, so long as one does not admit to it being for genetics. If customs find it, the "innocent travel souvenir - but the snake is still out there, why can't I keep it?" explanation may be more plausible than for a tube with scale clips in alcohol. Again, it would of course be just as illegal, and not something that could be endorsed.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
-----
WW Home

im in too.. my uncles got a killer boat, can anyone sail?..did i mention im in??..because if i didnt mention it already.. im in..lol
-----
Jaylon ( bigJ)