Reptile & Amphibian Forums

"Mine are currently breeding (Male at 1000 gms. and females around 1500 to 1900 gms.) and I bought them as 200-300 gm. babies in March-May this year!"

This is a quote from the albino market debate a few posts down where a poster puts that his 03 babies are breeding for him currently and they were a mere 200-300 grams as of May of this year, now as much as I know about Ball Python Growth rate and my collection I would say that either they are 02's from last May or that they weighed more upon purchase than 200 grams. Has anyone else had similar results? I feed what many think to be a lot to my balls and I have yet to see any of them skyrocket in weight as this persons balls did. I’m not saying anything about the albino argument, he has some well thought out points and he makes them very intelligently so he is entitled to his opinion. I just want to know about this growth rate idea... Any comments?

Sincerely,
Rose Hipskind
srsnakes

i have a Bp that was born in april, and its pushing the 850 mark right now. In sept. it was 650 grams, and in early november it reached the 730 mark. i feed small rats every tuesday.

But the male might be. But he's not breeding females at 9 months and getting them to 1900g. Not unless he knows something we all don't.
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Thats kind of what i feel, i have my two het albinos which are May-June 03's and the female is about 750 grams, but as ive said i feed them all the time, soooooo im just not sure what he knows that we dont know...

thanks for your quick replys!
Sincerely,
Rose Hipskind
srsnakes

I got a female in July, she was probably a WC that wasn't feed that much but ate well for me. She was 600 grams then she is pushing 1500 now. And I had a regurge issue that put her off feed for a little while for treatment and eased her back into feeding. I could see 300 grams to 1500 grams going in 7 months.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I agree, I don't beleive you can get a female BP that big that fast. But then again those claims were made by the same individual who said "the Bush tax cuts have caused an enormous surge in the economy" I guess everyone lives in their own fantasy world sometimes.

Mark

I had noticed he said that too. If that doesn't set off your radar, then I don't think anything could. Did you notice he also said that albino balls would $1k in 2005? Fantasy world indeed . . .

Jake

a question on wether someone could make their money back in 6-7 years on a pair of albinos. I used a low-ball estimate to show that they definitely would if the snakes did indeed reproduce. A lot of animals could be produced in that time period, and even with falling prices, they still should do better than break even.

(a large breeder might tell you a different story just to make a sale, but since I am not selling anything, I have no reason to intentionally lie. Would you buy a $2200 snake if they told you prices would be much lower by the time you breed it?)

I just hope that the $1000 low-ball estimate, was in fact, low. I have been raising animals for a living for 11 years and as a hobby for over 20. I have seen things drop in price a lot faster than that! And when you consider how long it took for albino ball prices to drop from $10K, when there were only a couple, to what they are today, and how many people are now trying to breed them, it could very well happen. Also consider that there are many more morphs now for albinos to compete with that weren't around back then. I know one hobby breeder of cockateils that purchased some white faced morph tiels for $1600 each. The next year they were about $125 and 2 years later $40 each. That's much more dramatic than what I am talking about regarding Balls. I din't say they would be $60 each. Now that'd be depressing! Considering we are talking about 2 breeding seasons away, that number ($1000) might very well even be high.

Rodney

Isnt it supposed to be a bad idea to breed B/Ps at such a young age as 9 mths?Wouldnt there be some serious problems with the animal itself such as getting egg bound,infertile eggs,slugs,etc.Oh and about the whole feeding thing,to me feeding once a week as a baby up until about a foot or so is enough after that go on a stricter diet of every 7-10 days so they can grow naturally.Faster growth IMO means faster death to your snake.Trying to get a snake to breeding size in such a short time is in itself ludicrous,being old enough should be the factor not the size.Is the breeding of B/Ps or any other animal for that matter more important than the safety risk of possibly hurting it in the long/short run?Why are people so hellbent on trying to breed so soon instead of waiting at least 1.5 years or more?The market isnt going anywhere that soon so why the rush?The imporatnce of the next morph doesnt significantly hold water,the safety of the animal does.I say save an animal an run over a human,save god the trouble.Regards Bill McLeod

I agree, it seems like people are getting into bp's so fast because the market is good, they whant to hurry up and get a return on the investment. The reason these snakes are worth the prices breeders are selling them for, is the time and knowlege that goes into producing these great morphs.

First, I said I bought them early this year and they arrived in the 300gram range. I weighed them all and they were all between 250 and 380 when I received them. (They weren't thin or anything.) They could easily have been late to mid 02's depending on how well they were fed/were kept initially. No, I don't have hatch dates on them, and since I raise animals for a living and have over 200 snakes currently (no babies) I don't really care to keep track of when they hatched, nor do I really care "exactly" when they hatched. I have a rough idea since I know when I bought them. I bought 14 of them (50% het. albino females from 2 different people) and 2 are in the 1800/1900 range, about 4 are in the 1300-1500 range about 4 in the 1000-1200 range and the rest are in the 750-900 range. (yes, I do have a gram scale (4 of them actually) and these are actual weights (and my scales agree with each other)after defecating, not guesses or just fed animals.)

Here is another example that I will look up for you nonbelievers since I have their charts out right now, as I am currently feeding them again.

1.1 pastels received on (or first weighed on 9/18/03) from Mark Petros. Thanks Mark, great animals!

Female- 178 grams when received and now is 632 grams (and she hasn't eaten in 3 weeks, I assume from a winter hunger strike as a lot are off feed now) So, in exactly 3 days short of 3 months (and only about 2 month on feed!) she has gained 454 grams.

Male- 164 grams when received and now is 740 (just defecated so it isn't weight based on being a full animal). So, in exactly 3 days short of 3 months he has gained 576 grams.

And consider, that as animals age, they gain more weight the larger they are(to a certain extent). For example, a 100gm ball that gains 20% of it's weight in one month is now 120 grams. A 1000 gram animal that gains 20% of it's weight in one month gains 200 grams so it is now 1200 grams. Big difference between a 20 and a 200 gram weight gain even though it is the same % weight gain relative to the animals size.

Also, I feed them when they are hungry and only give one food item per feed. If they take the food within 5 min., they eat. If they don't take the food within 5 min., the food is removed. I have never had a Ball Python regurgitate either. This is with 20 animals that I have kept for about 7-9 months.

I don't know what the big controversy is. If an animal in the wild is hungry, it will eat, and it will also breed when it wants to. What's wrong with doing that in captivity also? Do you think non-breeding size animals never come into contact with each other in the wild? Considering the wide range of breeding dates/hatches, etc. in Ball Pythons, I think animals of all sizes/ages come into contact with each other during the breeding season in the wild.

I don't know what you guys are doing, but I think balls are really easy to keep! I hope they breed as easily (my male albino purchased in July at 380 grams (if I remember correctly, could have been June) is now 980 grams, has been off feed for about 6 weeks and has bred my 2 largest females twice so far, soon to start on his third female and then I will probably breed the first 2 females again if they allow it!-then he can try for a fourth female, and so on!--Lucky guy!)

Rodney

You got them early this year as small yearlings. You fed them well and they are now breeding "size" at 18 months. Nothing special, as that is done all the time. Good job though! I wish you all the luck!

Also keep in mind that breeding them easy. Actually, breeding them is easier than not breeding them. Getting the females to ovulate and produce fertile eggs is the tricky part. But you have to literally shoot the things to make them stop copulating!!

Good luck man!
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I am only going to breed the largest 5 or so females this year.

By the way, I've noticed a lot of people read these post and "go off" on things that they infer and that the posts don't say. Don't assume so much people! I clearly said they were all around 300grams when I recieved them early in the year. I never said they were 03 hatched. I am fairly new to balls, but I would guess that they are about 14 months old now based on what I have experienced with them.

Rodney

Size overrules maturity.If you did get them march or april of this year and they were hatched mid or late 02 (around july for mid,october-november late) then that would make them 17 mths for july(which is ok i guess because they arent exactly youngins)if they were born in october/november that would make them 13-15 mths which is a few mths shy of what i would consider breeding age.If they were in fact born in any mth of 03 they ARE NOT breeding age no matter how much weight they gain.
As far as snakes in the wild breeding,they have a biological clock that tells them when its time to breed or they could care less and breed anytime they wanted.They also have a sense of timing that goes with age so they know when and what time of year to breed (which in captivity is controlled by us and not nature,so we breed them when we deem necessary.)I'm a fanatic when it comes to animals and their safety if you havent noticed.If i seem a little harsh in some of my posts its because that animals are my passion and not people.People have way less value than animals as far as life expectancy/safety is a concern.People are a virus that eventually will wipe out whats left of some of the animals so the animals need all the help they can get.People have destroyed more within the little time we have been here than mother nature has in the millions of years this planet has been here.Anyway enough of my rambling. Regards Bill McLeod

In some animals yes, in others no. It all depends on the type of animal and their life in the wild.

Animals that tend to prey on rodents, whos availability is greatly determined on weather conditions, have evolved to tolerate this. They gorge themselves when food is available to store up fat for lean times and breeding. I don't think feeding them well and breeding them young is any problem at all. I'll let you know if I have any problems doing this (except for infertile eggs).

And as far as breeding, while there is a biological clock part to the equation, it is determined more by body weight and climatic conditions as far as I can tell. If a snake is able to produce eggs (either because of it's weight orits age, or both) and the season is right to breed and ovulate, then it will.

And no offense taken, I think your post are just fine! Very civil in my opinion.

By the way, I am only going to breed females in the 1500 gm. range this year. I've heard people say 1200 is acceptable, but I am not going to do that.

Rodney

The best growth rate I have had is 200 grams a month.