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My corn just got bit by my other corns food (a big rat) I thought he was preocupied with his mouse but he went after the rat and got bit pretty bad in his mouth, i'm putting him in a temp. tank untill tomarrow when I can get him to the vet, should i have damp paper towles or dry ones in there with him???? and is there anythng i can do??? I washed all the blood out of his mouth, and gave him a warm bath...what sort of antiseptics can i use...I have tea tree oil, can i use that??? Someone please write back i'm in a panic!

-Amanda-
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1.0 Uromastyx (Toby)
1.0 Water Dragon (Anubis)
1.0 Golden Gecko (Goldmember)
1.0 Betta (Mr. Van Gogh)
1.0.1 Corn Snake (John Red Corn, Larry)
1.1 Gopher snake (#1, #2)
1.1 Rough Skin Newts
0.0.2 Fancy Comets (Thing 1, Thing 2)

although you may be right you didn't need to insult this person so much.

It isn't a good idea to feed 2 snakes in the same enclosure
it isn't even a good idea to keep 2 different sized snakes togeather
and it isn't a good idea to feed live prey to any snake because they can get bit (wich is exactly what happened)

but i think the post above was a little uncalled for the person asked for advice and all you did was insult her and called her stupid

you could have made all your points just as well without insulting her
that was pretty mean and just not called for IMO

Some larger corns could eat a small rat no problem
so next time make your critisism a little more constructive
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Girlfriend: Your room smells like reptiles!
Me: Are you saying that my Balls smell?

Yes your right my adult amels eat fresh killed small rats.Maybe i was a little overboard on the insult department but that post got my blood boiling.Im sure she is a nice person who just made a bad choice....Paul

I felt the other post was right as far as "What not to do" and "what to do" now that you didn't follow the "What not to do". I could see the other person's emotions over an injured snake got the better of them. There's not many must follow rules in this hobby and Amanda broke two of them. How do we give people a wake up call? There aren't too many days that go by where there isn't a thread on one of these forums that doesn't talk about:

1. Putting snakes together in the same enclosure.
2. Feeding live rodents, especially rats.

Quite frankly I was upset when I read Amands's post. I think it's incorrect to call some one stupid or names, but if you take that away from the other post, the post addresses the two things that should be covered:

1. "What not to do".
2. "What to do" after you didn't follow the "What not to do".

Your post says: "It isn't a good idea to feed 2 snakes in the same enclosure". That's incorrect. "You DON'T feed 2 snakes in the same enclosure". I don't know how many times I've typed that, but I'm just one of many that have. I don't know why people don't think that rule applies to them and their snakes. If you know, fill me in.

You say: "Some larger corns could eat a small rat no problem". Incorrect again. "Live small rats can injure a snake NO PROBLEM".

Your post leans more towards "It's O.K." rather than "You don't do it" I'm sorry if I've read or taken it wrong, but it's not the time to say "it's O.K." after what happened to the corn snake.

Just my $.01.

Terry Parks

>>although you may be right you didn't need to insult this person so much.
>>
>>It isn't a good idea to feed 2 snakes in the same enclosure
>>it isn't even a good idea to keep 2 different sized snakes togeather
>>and it isn't a good idea to feed live prey to any snake because they can get bit (wich is exactly what happened)
>>
>>but i think the post above was a little uncalled for the person asked for advice and all you did was insult her and called her stupid
>>
>>you could have made all your points just as well without insulting her
>>that was pretty mean and just not called for IMO
>>
>>Some larger corns could eat a small rat no problem
>>so next time make your critisism a little more constructive
>>-----
>>Girlfriend: Your room smells like reptiles!
>>Me: Are you saying that my Balls smell?
feed

>>Quite frankly I was upset when I read Amands's post.

Me, too. To the point where I said to myself "You bleeding idiot!"

>>Your post says: "It isn't a good idea to feed 2 snakes in the same enclosure". That's incorrect. "You DON'T feed 2 snakes in the same enclosure". I don't know how many times I've typed that, but I'm just one of many that have.

Absolutely, I agree. Under no circumstances, ever, is it okay to feed two snakes together in one container. This was the first lesson I ever learned about keeping them, and that was a long time before I found the forums, and even before I had a book about keeping them.

The first snakes I purchased (in 1993) were a pair of adult black rat snakes. The day I first saw them in the store, I fell in love with them. A couple of days later, I went to visit, and the girls told me that they'd just almost lost the female. They'd fed them in the same cage, and both latched onto the same mouse. The girls weren't even watching them after they had put the mice into the cage. About 15 minutes later, one of them checked on them, and found the female halfway down the male's throat. They were able to get her out, and she was still alive, but barely.

Fortunately, both recovered. But they were lucky.

>>You say: "Some larger corns could eat a small rat no problem". Incorrect again. "Live small rats can injure a snake NO PROBLEM".

Even mice can injure a snake. REAL PROBLEM! The only live prey that is ever safe to feed, is newborn pinkie prey, PERIOD.

>>Your post leans more towards "It's O.K." rather than "You don't do it" I'm sorry if I've read or taken it wrong, but it's not the time to say "it's O.K." after what happened to the corn snake.

Again, you're right on the mark. It isn't okay, ever. The first post could have been more gentle, but it certainly wasn't inaccurate. There's no point in sugar-coating the truth. If a person really doesn't want his/her snake to come to grief, then he/she simply has to be prepared to follow the good advice offered by experienced keepers.
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tricia

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1.2 Corns (2 striped and 1 okeetee)
1.1 Graybanded
2.1 Banana Cal Kings
0.3 Solomon Island Ground Boas

Ummm why isn't anyone breeding a toothless mouse?
course i'm jokeing but what the yhey it would be pretty cool for some of those snakes than decied they want to die unless they get live food

Demon

u sort of misunderstood me a bit
i agree with everyone its a bad idea to feed keep snakes in the same inclosure and i quote
"its a very bad idea to feed live prey the snake can get bit"

you said that i was incorrect when saying some larger corns can eat a small rat no problem

thats not incorrect at all I know of tons of corns that will take a small rat no problem
frozen thawed or pre killed of coarse!

all in all what amanda did was misinformed but name calling is just not nessesary there is no place for it on this forum if you ask me!

and GARGOYLE420 i commend you for realizing and admitting that your post was harsh. and apologizing!!!
its easy to get cought up in the moment like that especially when an animal that we all love got hurt
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Girlfriend: Your room smells like reptiles!
Me: Are you saying that my Balls smell?

np.

>>np.
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tricia

>>u sort of misunderstood me a bit

I guess so. The way I read your post, it seemed that you were saying it was okay to feed a LIVE small rat. I'd never say that corns can't take pre-killed rats, since that's the prey of choice that I feed to almost all of mine. The fact is, that most of my snakes do better on rats than they do on mice, and the rats are certainly more prolific than any other rodent species.

I only use mouse pinkies for the tiniest baby snakies. Old mice get fed off after they've ceased producing, but most of my snakes are more avid about taking the rats.

>>you said that i was incorrect when saying some larger corns can eat a small rat no problem ...

>>... thats not incorrect at all I know of tons of corns that will take a small rat ...

But you didn't include the following qualifier:

>>frozen thawed or pre killed of coarse!
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tricia

....._____-------_____.....
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Girlfriend: Your room smells like reptiles!
Me: Are you saying that my Balls smell?

Am I wrong or are some of the previous posts gone. Any way being called amature or newbie because some things work for you that others may not particularly like is no reason to start slamming people who have alot of experience in this hobby. If this lady had not fed her two snakes in the same tank, this discussion wouldn't be taking place. We all make mistakes when we are learning a new job. From the look of her list of pets it seems to me she has some experience in other reptiles that some of us dont. Give the girl a little respect. Just my opinion
Jim

First of all, I'm sorry for the mean responses you got, but they were right.

I'm sure you've figured out by now that keeping two diferent sized corns together is a bad idea, and feeding them together is a HUGE no-no.

I don't know what to do for the snake now that it's beet bit, but get it to a VET! Hopefully there won't be any future feeding problems.

Just for future reference. Even if you keep the two snakes together after this (which you shouldn't) You MUST feed them seperately. Even if they don't go after each others food, they could smell mouse on each other and go for a snack. I even waited a day or two after feeding to put my breeders together, because I was afraid of that happening.

I feed my big snow juvie rats, but frozen/thawed. I don't see any reason pinkies can't be fed live, but once they get those big teeth, it's just to dangerous. It's not at all like in the wild! The mouse/rat is scared and cornered with no-where to run, it's only defense is to bite and scratch.

I hope the other posts didn't make you leave the group here, because really they can be helpful when not on a rampage. Get your snake to a vet, and I'll keep my fingers crossed for a quick and full recovery for her/him.

Now kill those RATS! lol
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
0.1 Snow (Ruby)
1.0 Anery A (Breaden)
0.0.4 Normal het-snow (no names yet)
1.1 Bloodred (Vlad the Impailer and Natasha)
0.1 Anery Stripe (Morticia)
1.0 Candy Cane (Kane)
0.1 Amel (Christine)
1.3 Cats (Alexys{f}, Mikki{f}, Timothy{m}, Seven{f})
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

How many times have we seen the "heated debate" about not feeding live rodents to snakes!!!! Please let this be a lesson to those of you who still believe it is ok to feed a live rodent to a snake!! Im not talking about pinks and fuzzies either, use some common sense.

I have posted time and again about not feeding live prey to snakes we keep as pets. There is no reason to, and I dont want to hear the crutch that "my snake only eats live"! Bull@#$*!

I got a cali king that supposedly would only eat live. Well I feed only pre-killed or F/T and he made the switch when he got good and hungry, and there hasnt been any looking back for him since.

So, Amanda, my advice to you is the same as everyone else:

1. spend a little extra money and get yourself another set up so you can seperate the corns. There are alot of reasons for this, and if you do a search on here, you will come up with them. Im not going to type them again for the millionth time.

2. DO NOT feed live prey again, PERIOD!! Feed F/T or pre-killed and your snakes will be healthier, both physcially and mentally.
Some snakes after being bitten will go off feed, and actually be afraid of the prey item because of the trauma associated with the bite.

3. Get the vet to assess the snakes wound. A bite in the mouth can be VERY dangerous. Can have broken bones, nerve damage, tongue damage, tooth damage, and can become infected. This could lead to mouth rot and eventual death. The snake could go off of feed due to the wound being painful, start losing weight and the onset of infection could set him on the road to non-recovery!!!

So, please in the future, take the information given by everyone on here and use it. Granted it may not all be correct info, but most of the time that incorrect info is "flamed".

There are alot of knowledgeable people on here and if you take the info to heart, you will have a better understanding of snakes and enable you to care for your snakes as well as possible.

Dont get discouraged, just take this lesson learned with a grain of salt and give your snake a healthy, happy life.

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Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

My response does not have much to do with the original post, as I think that has been answered. But in the process it seems like some incorrect information was given out.

First of all I would like to say (as I have said before) this is the major fault of getting information from forums. One minute someone posts a message saying one thing, next minute someone else says the opposite with the same level of confidence and justification.

Now, as far as the things that were said. To say a person should never house 2 corns together is wrong. It needs some qualification. Also, housing 2 different sized corns together is not necessarily wrong. That also needs some qualification.

I find this disconcerting. I understand that it is easy to just say things when you are typing them, but remember, many people read these posts. Not only is it confusing to hear 3 different things, but chances are at least one of them is wrong, or at least inaccurately stated.

The next thing is the issue of live food. As per the Corn Manual, Kathy says that corns are very adept at killing mice and rats, and rarely get hurt. In fact she says that some breeders always use live feeders. The statements made here by some people need some qualification. I don't know any statistics on it, but I would bet with some accuracy that 90% of the time when a rodent injures a corn it is because the corn was not intending to eat that rodent. This was the situation in this case. But does this mean live rodents or bad? Or you can't feed live rats? No.

Now this should no be confused with the fact that some people have made their own decisions regarding certain questions . For instance I would never feed a live rat to my corn. Does that mean it shouldn’t be done?. No.

Anyway, I don't know - it just bothers me when people don’t say true things (or at least clearly qualify that they are stating their opinion). Especially on an online forum like this where people come to read to learn.

The reason my post comes from the direction it does is because this is not a question of what should I do from the start; rather it is a post of "what to do" after I didn't do the "What not to do".

You say:

>housing 2 different sized corns together is not necessarilly wrong.

and

>But does this mean live rodents or bad? Or you can't feed live rats? No.

Amanda's situation falls within the limits of this line of reasoning and is most likely making a trip to the vet with an injured snake.

I'm sorry, I just can't say it is O.K. to house 2 snakes together and feed live rodents. Period.

Anyone who is thinking and posting it is still O.K. to house snakes together with special reasons or feed live rodents with no problem on this thread is beyond my thinking I guess.

This is a perfect example of why it is NOT O.K.

Terry Parks

>>My response does not have much to do with the original post, as I think that has been answered. But in the process it seems like some incorrect information was given out.
>>
>>First of all I would like to say (as I have said before) this is the major fault of getting information from forums. One minute someone posts a message saying one thing, next minute someone else says the opposite with the same level of confidence and justification.
>>
>>Now, as far as the things that were said. To say a person should never house 2 corns together is wrong. It needs some qualification. Also, housing 2 different sized corns together is not necessarily wrong. That also needs some qualification.
>>
>>I find this disconcerting. I understand that it is easy to just say things when you are typing them, but remember, many people read these posts. Not only is it confusing to hear 3 different things, but chances are at least one of them is wrong, But does this mean live rodents or bad? Or you can't feed live rats? No.
>>
or at least inaccurately stated.
>>
>>The next thing is the issue of live food. As per the Corn Manual, Kathy says that corns are very adept at killing mice and rats, and rarely get hurt. In fact she says that some breeders always use live feeders. The statements made here by some people need some qualification. I don't know any statistics on it, but I would bet with some accuracy that 90% of the time when a rodent injures a corn it is because the corn was not intending to eat that rodent. This was the situation in this case. >>Now this should no be confused with the fact that some people have made their own decisions regarding certain questions . For instance I would never feed a live rat to my corn. Does that mean it shouldn’t be done?. No.
>>
>>Anyway, I don't know - it just bothers me when people don’t say true things (or at least clearly qualify that they are stating their opinion). Especially on an online forum like this where people come to read to learn.

I understand what you're saying, but 1)if you never house two snakes together, you won't get into problems that involve two snakes together; and 2)if you don't feed live, the snake will never get bitten by the rodent.

Common sense rules here. Doesn't mean it is the only way to do things, but it sure is effective at eliminating some of these potential problems. It definitely should be the guideline, and more experienced herpers can veer off of these guidelines.

Well thats sorta the point I wanted to make. Honestly I dont care what you do as long as its not stupid. Thats really the whole thing. But to say you cant do something that is done by many people successfully is not very effective on this forum.

And quite honestly I think you ignore "just using common sense" when you say you cant house more than one, and you cant feed live rodents.

You cant get around the fact that regardless of the fact that some people dont think you cant do either many people do successfully without problems. Why? Becuase they also use common sense.

The girls case above is a bad mistake made with bad information. This has nothing to do with these two issues. This is a huge logical error. Not to make a big example out of her - at this point that is not my concern.

But perhaps at some point you have to concede that you cant stop these things from happenning however unfortunate it is. But I wish people would think about this.

I just would like to know, is your morbid fascination with your snake "naturally" killing its prey worth its health??

>>My response does not have much to do with the original post, as I think that has been answered. But in the process it seems like some incorrect information was given out.
>>
>>First of all I would like to say (as I have said before) this is the major fault of getting information from forums. One minute someone posts a message saying one thing, next minute someone else says the opposite with the same level of confidence and justification.
>>
>>Now, as far as the things that were said. To say a person should never house 2 corns together is wrong. It needs some qualification. Also, housing 2 different sized corns together is not necessarily wrong. That also needs some qualification.
>>
>>I find this disconcerting. I understand that it is easy to just say things when you are typing them, but remember, many people read these posts. Not only is it confusing to hear 3 different things, but chances are at least one of them is wrong, or at least inaccurately stated.
>>
>>The next thing is the issue of live food. As per the Corn Manual, Kathy says that corns are very adept at killing mice and rats, and rarely get hurt. In fact she says that some breeders always use live feeders. The statements made here by some people need some qualification. I don't know any statistics on it, but I would bet with some accuracy that 90% of the time when a rodent injures a corn it is because the corn was not intending to eat that rodent. This was the situation in this case. But does this mean live rodents or bad? Or you can't feed live rats? No.
>>
>>Now this should no be confused with the fact that some people have made their own decisions regarding certain questions . For instance I would never feed a live rat to my corn. Does that mean it shouldn’t be done?. No.
>>
>>Anyway, I don't know - it just bothers me when people don’t say true things (or at least clearly qualify that they are stating their opinion). Especially on an online forum like this where people come to read to learn.
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Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Actually I said I dont feed live prey to my corns.

This is disheartening. I will refrain from this thread.

Brad
Yes you said you do not feed live prey to your corns, however, in the same sentence you also said "But does this mean live rodents or bad? Or you can't feed live rats? No."

So although you dont agree with the practice, you still advocate it.

And what is the reasoning behind this statement: "Anyway, I don't know - it just bothers me when people don’t say true things (or at least clearly qualify that they are stating their opinion). Especially on an online forum like this where people come to read to learn."

To me this is not an opinion, but a fact of good husbandry to not feed your animals live or to keep more than one per container! It is not OK to feed live, period. Because accidents do happen, that is why they are called accidents. However, by eliminating a factor for accidents, we eliminate accidents.

That is what I dont understand. Just curious as your reaoning. Not trying to belittle you in any way, Im just curious as to your statements.

>>Actually I said I dont feed live prey to my corns.
>>
>>This is disheartening. I will refrain from this thread.
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Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Thank you for asking - lol I am glad to explain myself on this issue becuase I believe its very important. Please if you can read the more recent post by Kathy Love about the housing question. She says exactly what I meant to say, but I will explain myself. I think this issues are the main problem (or at least my issues with it.)

Anyway,

To say "I dont feed live rats." and "Live rats should not be fed to corn snakes." are not logically equivalent. So it not saying the same thing. Just becuase I dont do it doesn't mean that it is a bad idea to do it.

Its not so much that I advocate it as much as that I dont think you can say (at least not with this issue) that you can't do it.

>To me this is not an opinion, but a fact of good husbandry to >not feed your animals live or to keep more than one per >container! It is not OK to feed live, period. Because accidents >do happen, that is why they are called accidents. However, by >eliminating a factor for accidents, we eliminate accidents.

I think this is incorrect. It is not a fact. Many people have success maintaining multiple corns per enclosure. Many people have success with feeding live rats. (Even Kathy Love says corns are very adept at killing rats and rarely get hurt...its in the book). So you are basing your reason on a smaller number of accidents. But I doubt this is true - people with one corn snake in one enclosure who feed frozen pinkies can do very stupid things. And to say it is less likely they will make a mistake is factually not provable. Now to the other quote you used, because I hope this will tie everything in...

>And what is the reasoning behind this statement: "Anyway, I >don't know - it just bothers me when people don’t say true >things (or at least clearly qualify that they are stating their >opinion). Especially on an online forum like this where people >come to read to learn."

You cant make blanket statements. (

Brad
Thanks for answering in a civil way.

Everyone has their right to do what ever they desire. I just hate to see someone warned about the possibilities of doing X. Then that person does X, and the very thing that they were warned about happens. Then the snake suffers from it. I have seen it a bunch of times on these forums.

I just feel strongly opposed to feeding live prey to a snake and housing them together.

The way I look at it, why even risk it when you dont have to?
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Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

I agree too - I personally dont like the risk. I once fed my snake a small mouse live and when it coiled, the head was pinned against the body witht mouth opened around the snake. I was very worried. The mouse tried to bite, but it didnt penetrate the scaled. But I was so nervous that 99% of the time I dont feed live. And honestly I would never feed a live rat becuase they are huge and I think in the rare event that the rat bit the snake I think it could be devastating.

But I dont think its a stupid thing to do. I just dont want to do it. They do eat them in the wild, and even in captivity they are successful at eating them. Like I said before Kathy mentions many examples in her book of people that only feed live and dont have problems. She says one reason people do is to excercise the snake - which actually makes sense to me.

I actually do have two corns that are housed together. I also have corns that are housed seperate. I have never had a problem with either case. In fact the ones that are together always hide in the same spot. I have foudn this to be true of any snake in captivity. This is perplexing to me becuase everyone says snakes are not social. But you could have 30 hides in a huge enclosure and they will hide together. Sorta off topic but very strange. Even 11' anacondas - and when the tub is inconvenient
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=267531,268178.

But yea, many people do it successfully with no problems at all.

Anyway I think we finally understod each in my last post, and we are both happy, but I guess these are just some afterthoughts. LOL.

This has been a rare good experience on this topic for me.

this topic is also a heated debate with a volkswagens forum i belong to. though the forums are, in my opinion, the best sources of info in most cases, members are becoming uninterested in the site at all because of 3 or 4 people who 'flame' others for what they consider to be ugly cars, or lousy modifications. it does boil down to common sense. in the case of the bitten snake, her post was not asking whether she was wrong or right, i'm sure her common sense told her that it was obviously a mistake. she was, however, asking for help in how to treat her snake because she obviously cares for them, whether or not she knew how exactly to take care of them. she did not ask for anyone to tell her what an idiot she was. no, she didn't not use a lot of common sense. she just may not have known better. but i believe a total lack of common sense was issued when posts were made against her person, instead of objective answers to her questions and positive information on what would be best for her and her pets. it goes both ways.
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-ryan
fancher@email.com
ultimate frisbee, volkswagens and snakes.

Ryan - I assume Amanda isn't on this thread because there were several posts at the beginning that addressed her question of having an injured snake. The first post to hers addressed what she should do now. The first few posts mentioned checking the mouth and/or getting it to a vet. People get upset when they read a SNAKE getting injured over doing something you shouldn't do. The only flavor I want to bring to this thread has been it is NOT OK. Yes, people have and will continue to do what Amanda did because it is possible to do. You can feed live rats to snakes. You can put 2, 3, 4, or many snakes together in the same cage. It is possible to do it. But I continue to say, IT IS NOT OK. Why? Because the very unfortunate thing that happened is POSSIBLE to happen. I don't like to see things that say it's O.K. especially on a thread where a snake has been injured. We don't even know at this point if the snake will survive. I'm not heartless. I feel bad for the snake and I feel bad for Amanda. Quite frankly, I applaud a person who had the courage to post on this forum the post she did. I agree it's not a time to call anyone names. My first post states that. There are threads in the archives that address you shouldn't do the things Amanda did. This is one of the reasons you don't do these things. It is possible to injure your snake. I'm sorry this happened to Amanda. I'm especially sorry this happened to her snake. She is NOT stupid or a bad person; NOT in the least. Please in the future if possible Amanda, house your snakes separately and feed them prekilled. Yes Ryan, you are correct it goes both ways.

Terry Parks

>>this topic is also a heated debate with a volkswagens forum i belong to. though the forums are, in my opinion, the best sources of info in most cases, members are becoming uninterested in the site at all because of 3 or 4 people who 'flame' others for what they consider to be ugly cars, or lousy modifications. it does boil down to common sense. in the case of the bitten snake, her post was not asking whether she was wrong or right, i'm sure her common sense told her that it was obviously a mistake. she was, however, asking for help in how to treat her snake because she obviously cares for them, whether or not she knew how exactly to take care of them. she did not ask for anyone to tell her what an idiot she was. no, she didn't not use a lot of common sense. she just may not have known better. but i believe a total lack of common sense was issued when posts were made against her person, instead of objective answers to her questions and positive information on what would be best for her and her pets. it goes both ways.
>>-----
>>-ryan
>>fancher@email.com
>>ultimate frisbee, volkswagens and snakes.