Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it really bad to feed Balls when they want to eat?

The reason I am saying this is because I raise animals for a living and I have heard a lot of wives tales that have been totally untrue as far as my experiences go. And many of these can be heard from most of the "Big" breeders, so many people hear them from multiple "reliable" sources and just accept them as true.

Are people just repeating what they have heard from others, or is there really evidence to support this?

For instance, veiled Chameleons will get egg bound if not mated. I have found that to be totally false. Low calcium or not enough D3 could cause this, but not infertile eggs. I have had a number of females lay infertile clutches with no problems what so ever. And I have had "fertile egg" females get egg bound. There appears to be no significant difference (percentage wise) either way.

Leopard Geckos will get "egg bound" if bred below a certain weight. I let them breed when they want. I have never had an egg bound leopard gecko and I produce thousands of them from hundreds of breeders. Some will lay eggs when only 35-45 grams (about 6-8 months old depending on temps.), but the experts claim that will almost always kill them. And yet, I have never had one get egg bound-ever! Also totally false as far as I can tell.

Anyone have evidence that it is truly bad to feed Ball Pythons well?

I have found that a lot of these "stories" are amateurs that just "figure" that is the case and the stories continue to be regurgitated over and over. Being amateurs, they often make other mistakes and falsely blame the problems on things that are not related to the issue. People used to believe you needed to split a parrots tongue so it could talk well! Barbaric and totally untrue also. Their tongues have nothing to do with speach like in humans.

Since snakes don't have a pelvic-bone that eggs have to pass through, I don't see what the problem is. Fatty liver disease? I doubt that since fat is critical in egg production/breeding anyway, and typically, fatty liver disease is found in thin animals that are over fed, not stout animals like Ball Pythons.

If growing them fast and breeding them early shortens their lives, do they produce the same number of offspring in their lives either way? If so, why is this bad? If not, does one pair and all their offspring produce the same number of animals in a 10 year period? Is this bad and why? Some animals, like whales and humans, produce a one offspring every few years and live a long time. Some animals, like Chameleons, produce a lot of offspring every couple of months and die young. What is wrong with that? Is breeding Balls later in life than they would in the wild, really better? Are we manipulating their lives (long life with later initial breedings) so they resemble ours for some anthropomorphological reason? Again, anyone actually have evidence or just I heard from a friend, who heard from a breeder, etc.

Be nice people, a lot of people get upset when I question things that are the "norm". I only question them if they don't seem to make sense to me.

If you have facts, that would be great. If you have opinons, please present them as opinions and not fact so as not to perpetuate what might just be another wives tale, and nothing more.

Thanks,
Rodney

1) You're going to get a lot of responses to this post.

2) Most of the responses will be opinion-based and not fact-based.

Rest up...you've got a long night ahead of you...LOL...

This argument will probably never be answered. It is impossible to compare our snakes in captivity and their relatives in the wild. In the wild animals to grow at rapid rate as juveniles to avoid most predators. In captivity we offer ideal conditions with absence of predators and parasites. There are probably very few ball pythons that reach 25 years of age in the wild and likewise there are probably very few ball pythons that that reach 1700g in the first year of life. I do think that some people do overfeed their snakes in the pursuit of early breeding motivated by money. On the opposite end of the spectrum I have rescued a four year old Burmese that had only been fed 1 mouse every seven to tens days. At four years old this snake was only about five feet long and about four and a half pounds. I think we all need to remember that these are pets that we have accepted the responsibility to care for to the best of our ability whether they are investments or not. Just my . 02 but probably not worth that. Clay Rhodes

Don't start a new thread every time you make a new post on this topic.

Good luck with your discussion!

-Joan

I figured this would get a lot of attention so I figured a new post was in order!

Thanks,
Rodney

"quote" For instance, veiled Chameleons will get egg bound if not mated. I have found that to be totally false. Low calcium or not enough D3 could cause this, but not infertile eggs. I have had a number of females lay infertile clutches with no problems what so ever. And I have had "fertile egg" females get egg bound. There appears to be no significant difference (percentage wise) either way."unquote"
Whats to say that it doesnt happen to others.Just because your veileds didnt get eggbound from not being mated doesnt mean that its a false statement.Do you have undisputable proof other than the ones that you kept/keep?Have you talked to known breeders of veileds and found it to be false or are you again going by what yours did?I'm not stating fact for one way or another but basing falseness on just one persons animals isnt enough to say its completely false for everything else.Sticking with the original thread,IMO Feeding b/ps or any other animal for that matter too much can lead to obeseness,shorter life expectancy,and possible breeding problems.Its not a bad thing to feed snakes when they are hungry but there not hungry all the time.There are alot of wives tales and there are alot of facts as well as fiction but possibly risking the animals health (and i would venture to say that there is risk) to me isnt worth the few babies they produce.Even with bigger snakes like burms and retics there is still a rule of thumb to go by so your animal doesnt wind up possibly dying.Regards Bill McLeod

First, let me say that I have raised around 800 chameleons. I have had problems myself in the beginning that I have learned from.

After talking with people that have said this, and in some cases seeing their animals, it was obvious that the animals were very calcium deficient. After talking with them about the chameleons care, it was also obvious. Also, the vast majority were first time Chameleon owners. There are a number of obvious signs of calcium deficiency in Chameleons. In severe cases, they animals will not hold their bodies very far off a branch or they will have bent distorted limbs from MBD when they were growing up. Some will also have a row of "nodes" noticeable on their sides where the "sternum" meets the ribs. These owners often didn't even notice it, or thought it was normal. Calcium is needed for proper muscle contractions and low calcium (which is exasperated by calcium being deposited on the eggs) prevents proper contractions to expel the eggs. Often, emergency calcium treatments alone will allow them to expel the eggs.-this works with birds as well. This treatment is well known by vets. In severe cases, a drug like oxytocin will also be needed.

Also, not allowing them access to a lay site is a major problem. Fertile and non-fertile egg females often have this problem because beginners don't provide a proper egg laying site. I even had someone bring eggs, that were fertile, into a shop I was delivering to, say that the female died because they never saw her breed with their male and that is what they had heard! (they were harvested from a dead female by cutting her open, just so the shop owners could see them).

Rodney

Deficiency thing.What i was getting at is that it can still happen naturally even if they are perfectly healthy.The chances of it happening arent that great but it still can happen.Most cases of calcium deficiency in Iguanas happen for the same reasons as for chams.People get them and dont do the necessary research and wind up either killing the animal or it gets deficiencies and needs emergency care to make it through it.Its trial and error but at the animals risk.Proper husbandry should be mandatory for all animals but most times thats not the case and the animal suffers from it.Anyway back to B/ps.Good debate or whatever it is. Regards Bill McLeod

No, I don't have indisputable proof. Just my own experiences that don't seem to concur with what a lot of people are saying about the "egg binding" problem cause and effect. And since I have a fair deal of experience, (probably more than a lot that repeat this theory as fact) I think I am probably right about it.

I really hate it when people repeat what they hear from others without ever having investigated it themselves. Just because something is repeated often, doesn't make it true.

I know what you mean about Iguanas. I've only had one and it never had a problem, but I have seen a lot of wierd looking ones in pet shops, rescue, etc. Mostly deformed jaws and legs. Sad when it is so easily preventable.

Rodney

I do remember some knowledge from Biology... how this relates to B/Ps is undetermined but a possible train of thought none-the-less...

Predatory animals (including humans) have a natural instinct to eat whenever food is available. It's a feeding mechanism that has evolved over millions of years. It is a nature born response to deal with food shortages. Predators in the wild do not eat consistently once a week or every few days... their schedule and food size varies.

This fact has been proven to be the cause of Obesity in humans. Humans can deal with a gorging every once in while but the continous feeding leads to health problems.

Could this be true in BPs?...

(Nice topic of discussion though... I am really interested in the results!)
-----
-Iman

1.1 Balls
0.1 Boa (BCI)
0.0 Experience
100.0 LOVE

Loving to Learn
Learning to Help
Helping to Love

The big difference is the type of food they eat. Since mice have such a short life cycle, their population changes dramatically, very quickly when there is abundant food, so there is also abundant food for the pythons at the same time.--Thus the pythons can eat a lot. In a four month period of abundance, the mice (or other rodents) and their offspring will produce a lot of babies!

With large predators, they rely on larger food sources (deer, zebra, gnu, etc.) These animals have a much longer life cycle (one birth a year and usually one baby per birth, etc.) so abundance of this food source, while associated with abundance of it's food, isn't as directly related as it is to rodents. Thus, large predators don't get nearly the abundance of food/lack of food cycle based on climactic conditions as small predators do. They do, however, experience abundance based on migration schedules of their prey. It is interesting, but different animals migrate at slightly different times. For instance, Zebra may migrate in March, Gnu in May, buffalo in July, etc. so there is usually something available (depending on where the predators live).

I raise a lot of Australian parrots. In the wild, they also nest at different times. They have evolved this way so they don't have to compete with other birds/parrots for nest sites or food (which they need a lot of when raising babies). It appears that migration of large prey animals is similar, to avoid competition with other species for food/water if possible.

Rodney

From my own experience and not what I have heard...

I have seen a couple of very young leopard geckos that were bred, die. Most likely the cause was calcium defiency (the people where not really caring for them correctly) but I always tell new people....WAIT! Now the real reason that I tell them to wait is because I really want them to LEARN before they just start breeding.

I personally feed my adult ball pythons whenever they will eat. During the summer, this is close to every week. But since MINE refuse to eat all winter, I let them eat whatever they want all summer.

If growing them fast and breeding them early shortens their lives, do they produce the same number of offspring in their lives either way? If so, why is this bad?

Are we manipulating their lives (long life with later initial breedings) so they resemble ours for some anthropomorphological reason?

What you are describing is farming versus pet ownership. A chicken farmer would be baffled at someone who was interested in keeping a hen as a pet, caring little for its egg production and keeping it alive as long as possible. The farmer is interested in maximizing income.

I don’t know if I’d call it “anthropomorphological”, but most people who keep dogs or cats as pets do hope they will have long lives. I’d suspect those who keep a ball python or two probably feel the same. However, those whose primary aim is dog production or cat production or ball python production may look at things more in line with your first scenario.

np

While I know a lot of people believe these things, without proof, I don't.

I have always felt quality of life is far more important than quantity.

I don't know if you are familiar with Dr.Dean Edell, but he makes many excellent points regarding human health. For instance, would you eliminate all your favorite foods to extend your life? If you lived 5 years longer, but those years were in a wheelchair or suffering from Alzheimer's, wouldn't you rather trade those last 5 "low quality" years for the pleasure of eating what you want for the first many years of your life? Is it better to enjoy your life, eat what you want, and die quickly at 65 with a heart attack, or live to 65 then have a debilitating disease and then live to 70 in a very debilitated state? No one ever tells you that by reducing your cholesterol, you will live longer, but the extra years you get will most likely not be very good ones. (on average, obviously there will be some exceptions). Often, the improved health from eating better, just makes you survive a heart attack or stroke. It doesn't necessarily prevent it. And life after that event may not be very good.

Is it worth it to breed Balls later and grow them slower, if the years you gain by doing so are poor health ones?

Also, most breeders that raise animals for their sole income take better care of their animals than most hobbyists or pet shops. They have to, or they are not breeders because they are out of business! I am not talking about dog and cat breeders here, because those animals can tolerate much worse conditions without a loss of breeders or breeding. Do you think anyone could keep reptiles in "puppy mill" conditions and be able to avoid diseases that would wipe them out? Do you think they would have any reasonable number of breeding successes? Enough to stay in business? While this doesn't apply to a lot of people here on kingsnake (since most of the people here are looking for more info. than they can find in books, they are already way above average, just by being here) there are also some people that are too cheap to buy a book and read it before they bring the animal home! How many times have you seen this happen? It's very common to see if you ever hang out at a pet shop. "Hobbyist" or "Pet Owners" are often willing to buy the cage and the animal, but they often don't want to buy books, heating equipment, etc.--you will never find this scenario with a professional breeder. How many "hobbyists" get bored with their animals and stop taking proper car of them? Also, most professional animal breeders that I have known, don't have the luxury of buying a "replacement" animal with the income they get from their jobs, because they rarely have the extra money, and animals are their job--without the animals, they are out of work! It's pretty hard to make anywhere near the money, by breeding animals, as it is to make in the private sector. I haven't taken a day off in about 12 years. I work 7 days a week, wether I am sick, or injured, rain or shine. Try to find someone willing to that who is a "hobbyist". The point is, professional breeders tend to take extra measures that many "hobbyists" won't.

And, most importantly, I don't even know if it is true that animals will live longer if grown slower and bred later.

For instance, it is possible that a constant growth of feeding more often may give better digestion, and thus, fat reserves. A continuous stream of food may contribute to better digestion. Maybe better calcium retention. Maybe breeding earlier depletes fat stores on a yearly basis so there isn't as long of a period in the snakes life with a high body fat content--and that may actually make a snake live longer by getting it on a regular cycle of gaining and loosing fat earlier in life. Who knows? Snakes tend to grow their entire lives, and while animals that tend to reach a certain size at maturity (like mammals) may apply to this age/breeding logic, do snakes?

Since I don't know what is really true, and no one else does as far as I can tell, and since there have been no studies that I know of to prove or disprove this, isn't acting on the assumptionthat breeding later is better for their life span, just as wrong as breeding them earlier (since we really don't know if it is true or not)?

Rodney

The issues of obesity and power feeding need to be seperated. Obesity has been proven to cause health problems, among them low fertility. This probably isn't a big problem with a naturally stocky snake like BP's, although I'd imagine it's still possible.
Growing snakes too fast is a more nebulous thing, as it's hard to prove that feeding a snake in X manner caused it to live 30 years instead of 40. A snake that was grown very quicky is not necessarily obese, especially if it's a breeder. I personally try not to grow them what I perceive as unnaturallly fast, although that's just my opinion, and I don't have whole piles of experience with it in the first place.
-----
Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

I know fr a fact that a friend had a pair of balls die...at 2 years of age...and they were overfed probably....and they didnt' produce any eggs..........only thing I could think of is too much fod.......(.every other day)........
.......$15000 is no wives tale...........

yep