Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am a former canebrake and pigmy rattler keeper who is considering getting back into it. I am building a nice display case for just one or two animals and will go the extra mile to make a really nice presentation. It's almost time to choose a 'brand' and since I am leaning toward Cobras I have a few questions ...

* Do all of the Cobras (Naja, Aspidelaps, etc.) show marked tissue necrosis from envenomation? Do some species exhibit less sloughing than others? Please note ... I do not PLAN to be bitten and will be handling them very rarely. Just curious.

* Do the spitters (Black and Red) eventually stop spitting, or does it depend on the temperment of the snake? The Reds are GORGEOUS ... but I am cautious about the spitting because of the screened top.

* Does the Coral Cobra generally have a pretty even temperment? I know each specimen is different, but every Cape Cobra I've ever seen was a very nervous and nasty snake. What about the Red Spitters? Laid back demeanor, generally?

* Any experienced Cobra keepers in the Triad area of North Carolina?

Thanks for your indulgence ...

Minh Thong
Greensboro, NC

Red Spitters are a great looking snake, but a screened top is a No NO...

Joe G

I've seen your pic before somewhere. She's a GORGEOUS little thing. I'd love to have one just for a nice display. I think it'd look beautiful against tan outdoor carpeting in the cage.

Minh

>>* Do all of the Cobras (Naja, Aspidelaps, etc.) show marked tissue necrosis from envenomation? Do some species exhibit less sloughing than others? Please note ... I do not PLAN to be bitten and will be handling them very rarely. Just curious.

Aspidelaps do not cause necrosis as far as is known.

Among the Naja, N. haje, N. annulifera, N. melanoleuca and N. nivea are primarily neurotoxic and don't normally cuase (much) necrosis. Among the Asians, N. philippinensis does notnormally cause necrosis either. The other Asians as well as the African spitters often cause substantial necrosis. The relative frequency and severity of necrosis and neurotoxicity vaires even within species.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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Thanks for the info. I've been reading everything I can get my hands on and based on looks, size, temperment, (relative) toxicity, and ease of keeping I've decided I'll look for a Banded Egyptian Cobra. I'll have a 36x24x24 enclosure with plexi front and ends, screen top, locking top, and outdoor carpeting ready this weekend which should be fine for a juvenille. I wanted another Canebrake (my previous experience with hots) but it looks like the NC endangered laws are gonna preclude this.

So ... Cobras it is. Anyone have a small CB Haje for sale in North Carolina? Will anyone have one at the Bristol show?

Minh

Hi Minh,

the transition from keeping domestic pitvipers to keeping elapids is a very significant one, and one that should be well thought out.

* Do all of the Cobras (Naja, Aspidelaps, etc.) show marked tissue necrosis from envenomation? Do some species exhibit less sloughing than others?

As noted by WW, some of the have venom that is primarily neurotoxic, with very little necrotic activity, if any. Regarding Aspidelaps, more work (and/or bite accounts) is needed to determine the true potential of their venom.

* Do the spitters (Black and Red) eventually stop spitting, or does it depend on the temperment of the snake?

Most specimens of Naja nigricollis and Naja pallida tend to calm down in time, assuming that they are being kept in a low stress environment. Over the years, many will get to the point where you will hardly see them hood up. At the same time, there are specimens that will remain nervous, and will spit constantly every time the cage is opened or even approached.

* Does the Coral Cobra generally have a pretty even temperment? I know each specimen is different, but every Cape Cobra I've ever seen was a very nervous and nasty snake. What about the Red Spitters? Laid back demeanor, generally?

Comparing coral cobras (Aspidelaps) to true cobras (Naja) is like comparing apples to oranges. Aspidelaps are relatively small elapids that lack the physical capabilities of some of the true Naja. Naja pallida will often calm down over time, but can be pretty jumpy at times.

None of the the true Naja are really suitable, unless you have prior experience with elapids. If this isn't the case, I'd recommend Aspidelaps, as these do not have the physical capabilities and - from what what is currently known - potent venom of the Naja.

If it has to be a Naja, a hatchling N.kaouthia would likely be the ticket. Despite their nasty venom, N.kaouthia are more suitable than most other Naja, because they lack the speed, coordination, and - in most cases - the size that makes some of the other species (including N.haje) that much more dangerous.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

~TE

Thanks for the information. Now, dumb hypothetical question time ...

In order to test for potential anaphylaxis (with the full understanding that anaphylactic reactions may suddenly present without warning), wouldn't the 'skin scratch test' preclude the use of venoms which exhibit pronounced necrosis? Or do the minute (and diluted) amounts of venom used in the test preclude the need to use only non-necrotic varieties.

Again ... just a hypothetical question. I handled crotalids for many years and was only bitten once due to my own youthful stupidity. I plan to take to all possible precautions to ensure I am never bitten by an Elapid. However, since it is indeed a risk inherent in the hobby, I have alot of questions about it.

Thanks again for the info ...

Phil Minh Thong Holbrook

>>In order to test for potential anaphylaxis (with the full understanding that anaphylactic reactions may suddenly present without warning), wouldn't the 'skin scratch test' preclude the use of venoms which exhibit pronounced necrosis? Or do the minute (and diluted) amounts of venom used in the test preclude the need to use only non-necrotic varieties.

Fact is, nobody tests for allergy to snake venoms. Tests of this nature are potentially harmful (because they can set off anaphylaxis), and probably not all that reliable (which is for instance why testing for horse serum allergy before giving antivenom has been largely abandoned).

There are two ways to find out if you are allergic: (i) if you keep sneezing when you are around the snakes, that would be a warning sign. (ii) you get bitten, go into anaphylactic shock and die within 15 minutes.

Moreover, unless you have a strong history of allergies, and unless you either have or plan to work with the venoms of these snakes, then you are unlikely to develop an allergy. Spitters would be more of a potential problem, since venom that gets sprayed into the cage or substrate can dry, become airborne dust, and then be breathed in.

In any case, the smart approach to prevent contingency (ii) as outlined above is to have several Epi-Pens ready for use in your snake room.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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(ii) you get bitten, go into anaphylactic shock and die within 15 minutes.

AHAHAH, very funny. Even if it is no laughing matter.

Hi Nightflight,

Getting an Aspidelaps might be useful if you are going to get a hatchling cobra - it prepares you for a squirly little snake that won't stay on a hook and rears up a lot. It doesn't do much to prepare you for an adult cobra. Try playig with freshly wild-caught coachwhips for that. Every bite = you're dead.

I agree though that N. kaouthia would be better than a N. haje. Egyptians are much larger and have far more attitude than a N. kaouthia. A 7 ft Egyptian in a foul mood is a truly terrifying animal.

For a first cobra, my recommendation would be either N. kaouthia (pros: pretty klutzy compared to the large African species; doesn't spit; cons: nasty venom with necrosis and neurotoxicity, can easily kill you) or N. pallida (pros: venom mostly necrotic, very unlikely to kill you; cons: spits). The large African species (N. melanoleuca, N. haje, N. annulifera, N. nigricollis) all get extremely large, are very agile, and are far more likely to attack decisively and go for the kill than a N. kaouthia.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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Hi Wolfgang,

good points. I agree that working with Aspidelaps can be somewhat beneficial as a preparation for working with hatchling or juvenile Naja, however, many keepers who are new to elapids seem to associate coral cobras (Aspidelaps) with true cobras (Naja), because of their (mis-)implied association by common name. This assumption can be a bit of concern, as the physical capabilities of the two genera are vastly different.

I tend to recommend Naja kaouthia for first time Naja keepers, mostly because of their lack of physical capabilities when compared to other readily available Naja. While Naja pallida would be suitable from that perspective, the fact that it is a spitter can make the handling that much more of a challenge to someone who is new to cobras, especially if they happened to be dealing with a youg, spunky specimen.

The large African species are certainly for the experienced elapid keeper only, especially Naja melanoleuca. I would classify the latter in the same category along with Dendroaspis, Oxyuranus, Pseudonaja, and other potentially wild, lightning-fast, deadly species.

Regards,

~TE

I think a good first cobra would be a suphan!!

Joe G

>>I think a good first cobra would be a suphan!!

... which is basically a light colour phase of Naja kaouthia.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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but really folks what about keeping antivenin.....

A bit important whan you consider getting any exotic venomous snake!

but really folks what about keeping antivenin.....

A bit important whan you consider getting any exotic venomous snake!

Good point, though this should pretty much go without saying by the time that you are thinking about keeping elapids.

The following antivenin apply to Naja kaouthia:

Antivenom Code: SAsRII03
Antivenom Name: Naja Antivenom
Manufacturer: Razi Serum & Vaccine Research Institute
Phone: ++98-21-311-9708
Address: P.O. Box 31975/148
Hessarak-Karadj
Country: I.R. Iran

2. Antivenom Code: SAsTRC02
Antivenom Name: Cobra Antivenin
Manufacturer: Science Division, Thai Red Cross Society
Phone: ++66-2-252-0161 (up to 0164)
Address: Queen Saovabha Memorial Institute
1871 Rama IV Road
Pathumwan
Bangkok 10330
Country: Thailand

3. Antivenom Code: SAsGPO03
Antivenom Name: Cobra Antivenom
Manufacturer: Thai Government Pharmaceutical Organisation
Phone: ++662-644-8851
Address: 75/1 Rama VI Road,
Ratchathewi
Bangkok 10400,
Country: Thailand

4. Antivenom Code: SAsVRU04
Antivenom Name: Naja kaouthia Antivenom
Manufacturer: Venom Research Unit
Address: University fo Medicine and Pharmacy
Ho Chi Minh City
217 An Duong Vuong Q5
Country: Vietnam

5. Antivenom Code: SAsPIM01
Antivenom Name: Bivalent
Manufacturer: Pharmaceutical Industries Corporation
Phone: ++01-56742
++01-56750
Address: 192 Kaba Aye Pagoda Road,
Bahan, Yangon,
Country: Myanmar ( Burma )

6. Antivenom Code: SAsPIM02
Antivenom Name: Anti-Cobra, Siamese Cobra
Manufacturer: Pharmaceutical Industries Corporation
Phone: ++01-56742
++01-56750
Address: 192 Kaba Aye Pagoda Road,
Bahan, Yangon,
Country: Myanmar ( Burma )

Hope this helps.

Regards,

~TE

What about Naje Haje and Annulifera?

I have emailed the company that supplies the SAMR Polyvalent AV many times and I have left message with the AV Bank in FL, and I have yet to get a reply from either one. Language barrier maybe, in the case of the former? Anyone else had any luck with the AV companies overseas? Specifically ones that manufacture AV for Egyptian and Snouted Cobras?

Phil

>>What about Naje Haje and Annulifera?
>>
>>I have emailed the company that supplies the SAMR Polyvalent AV many times and I have left message with the AV Bank in FL, and I have yet to get a reply from either one. Language barrier maybe, in the case of the former? Anyone else had any luck with the AV companies overseas? Specifically ones that manufacture AV for Egyptian and Snouted Cobras?
>>
>>Phil

I recently sent a similar inquiry to SAIMR and received a reply fairly quickly. My reply came from a person by the name of Reuben Makgoba, and the e-mail was from louise.viana@nhls.ac.za. I was asking about the polyvalent that covers most of the African cobras (to my knowledge), which would cover my N. nigricollis, and also the monovalent that covers D. typus. The poly costs $60.00 ea and the mono was $254.00 ea, but still, I was fairly surprised at the relative low cost. Try again with that e-mail address and see if you can get any results.

Thanks for the info, I'll give it a try.

Your homepage is great...I enjoyed the information and many pictures!

>>Your homepage is great...I enjoyed the information and many pictures!
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