Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am in the process of setting up a few dart frog tanks & wanted to get some opinions on substrate. I've read some sites that say soil is unecessary and that plants will thrive in a gravel only situation. I've also read some that say with gravel only, very few plants will do well.... what do you all think? Is soil a requirement? The idea of having to take apart a terrarium after it's well established to change the soil sounds like a mess to me... I would rather go with all gravel if it's ok....

Thanks!

After my first tank all of my tanks have been all gravel and I have yet to have a plant die in it. My plants are all growing great. I read something at somepoint stating that all plants need its water and light as long as the water has the nutrients they need.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

It is all a matter of what you want to plant in the terrarium, and any concers you may have over wieght of the set up. If you want to use gravel you are limmiting the types of plants you can use, but that is not saying there aren't many plants that like that sittuation. Things like Spathophyllum and Philodendron, along with a lot of other Aeroids, will do quite well in gravel. It would also be relativley easy to establish a nice bed of java moss. But, I doubt you would have luck with groud dwelling orchids like Ludisia or Paphiopedlium. And you wouldn't be able to plant bromeliads directly in the substrate, they would need to be elevated (mounted to the back or on a limb).

Personaly I preffer an orchid media type substrate. I use a mixture of fir bark, pine bark, horticultural charcoal, and sphagnum moss. Every few months I add a couple of hand fulls of fresh substrate across the tank. Its not much and the result is not noticable after a few days. But this provides a constant in flux of organic material, allowing me to counter for what is removed through pruning and maintain my media depth in spite of decomposistion. I started doing this about a year after the tank was set up, when evidence of decomposistion became evident.

Plants need more then just water and light to survive. The issue that causes many plants to not survive in gravel is lack of aeration due to inundation of the roots. Aroids tend to be tolerable of this situation. And plants that can climb and produce advantageous roots, like Ficus pumilla can general bypass the aeration issue.

There are also some nutrient issues that may cause problems with some plants in gravel. Where even if the nutrient is present the plant can’t obtain it. But these situations are probably rare in the terrarium.

I'm no plant expert but have seen broms grown in gravel and leca don't broms get nutrients from the cups and not the roots? I even had a fern in just gravel and some said that was not possible. Each case will be different, but won't most of the nutrient problems still be around even if you use soil due to not being able to use fertilizers?

I have found that most plants that say need good drainage grow fine in just gravel. Yes it may not work for some rare species, but for most. I am just starting to try orchids, and have one that I have mounted on the cork. So far it is doing great.

I do plan to also try leaf litter over gravel which i hear is very good and easy to change if you use the right leaves. Its all about the look you want.

You can also use pots in gravel for any plant that needs them rather than the whole take of soilt that will go bad.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

I think it really comes down to what type of an environment you want to create. I am a true to my biotope. i say soil all the way. I want an environment that is a close to the real thing as possible. i want to create a world that not only looks good but is as organic as it can be. without soil you are losing all the organic material that aids in decomposition. no microorganisms, no insects, no worms no posiibility of developing any symbiotic plant/fungal relationships. Maybe it's far fetched but i think about stuff like that.

all of these organisms feed off of decomposing plants and proteins (ie. uneaten dead insects and fallen leaves). It's natural process. plants and insects die, other insect feed of of them they aerate the soil and create nitrogen rich soil which plants love. without soil you can have no hopes of developing a SOMEWHAT self-sustaining environment. Without soil you will never be able to develop a substatial springtail colony which will supplement your frogs diets for ever. I have so many insects living in my soil. sometimes i put a peice of ripe banana inside and the fruit flies lay eggs in it as it decomposes. larvae will hatch in a few days and the frogs have more food to eat. sexually mature crickets will lay eggs in the soil and pin heads will hatch.

additionally, due to the plant breakdown over the past 2 years i have developed pretty close to perfect black water conditions. completely natural. the water is a beautiful tea color slightly acidic with no filtration. i just have an air stone in it. I keep endler's that breed and have managed to maintain their colony. i also have a couple of neons in there as well.

That being said, i love the idea of all the levels of life. the circle of life. plants and animals die and they create food to sustain other life forms. my frogs being the highest on the food chain ofcourse. in my system they are definitely the kings of the jungle. with a rock substrate you will have no hope of any of the above.

I know i am a bit of an obsessive freak, major freak according to my wife, but that's just how i think.
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ss
0.4.0 D. leucomelas
0.0.4 D. auratus(grn/blk Panama)

This is true to a point, I think you can get the same type of thing going with moss over the gravel, and deffinantly with leaf litter. I would guess you can get the same micro organisigms from the dead flies and frog waste as you can from the decomposing soil.

I don't think there is any rock solid way to do things, and to be honest I have tried both soil and no soil with the same results, except for one main thing. My tank with soil is now a little over a year old and is in need of being redone. My other tank is just a couple months newer and growing great with gravel and moss on top. I'm not sure if just gravel is the way to go without some type of water to flush the waste out.

I'm sure there are 100 other opinions, I hope some other people chime in as like I said there is no perfect way, but many ways that work.
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Kyle
www.kylesphotos.com
Dart Links - still a work in progress
1.2.0 D. leucomelas
1.1.0 D. azureus
1.0.1 D. imitators

I'm in no way nocking gravel, you can get buitiful results with it. You know I could see some ferns doing well in gravel.

The nutrient issues I was talking about are things like a lack of organic celators and complexing compounds, leading to a rapid loss of nutirents from the media due to leeching. Also if you were to run into an overabundace of a given cation, like calcium in a hard water situation, you could have a crust form around the roots and end up decreasing the uptake potential for the plant. There is a lot to be said for a microfanua in your substrate, which is something that most gravel setups can't support. This leads to a lack of mineralization of certian nutrients meaning there is no residule pool of those nutrients to establish an equilibrium between solid and solution phase (again leeching issues). And like ss said, there is a much less likely chance of mycorhizal associations developing. And counter to popular beleif a lot of plants form these associations.

A lot of broms due take up nutrients from the vase, but most of the mesophytic species also have a degree of functionality to the roots. Have you ever noticed roothairs on any of your neos? I have grown some broms in strait sand, but there wasn't a constant pool of water under it.

Kyle I have seen your tanks and they are quite nice, but if you want a heavily planted setup I wouldn't use gravel.

I personally like an orchid media type substate as well. I use coconut husk chips and activated carbon because coco husk chips break down much more slowly than fir bark (supposedly, there shouldn't be substantial breakdown for 5 years). The activated carbon helps with cation exchange and absorption of nitrates (and any stinky smells that might build up--or so the theory goes).

I have had my setup going for almost a year now with no noticeable decay. My broms thrive in the substrate, and I have yet to find a plant that I can't grow in it . . . Dendrobium orchids, jewel orchids, moss, Java moss, cryptocorynes, cryptanthus, Neoregeilas, blah, blah, blah.

Like Kyle said, there are lots of ways to do things, but I'm sold on using coco husk chips. They're great.
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Homer W. Faucett III, esq.
Purveyor of Trivialities and Fine Nonsense