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A BREEDER THAT DOESN'T USE UV LIGHTING>>>>>>>READ ON>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g

cv768 Dec 16, 2003 08:04 PM

I just met a local breeder who told me he has been keeping and breeding veiled chameleons for more than 25 years and he claims he has tried using UV lighting for them off and on throughout the years and said that it really has made no differences in the health of his chameleons or their offspring...he believes they need well circulated air to thrive but not UV.

He offers them three crickets each per day as well as ficus and pothos...the crickets are also dusted with a vitamin supplement each time they are fed.

Has anyone else heard of this??? Not using UV??? I thought they would die without it...any comments??? suggestions???
-----
Chris

1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

Replies (17)

compasscreek Dec 16, 2003 08:07 PM

np

eric adrignola Dec 17, 2003 09:16 AM

It IS VERY beneficial for the most part.

When I started with veilds, 10 years ago, you only had two choices with UVB light. The sun or vitalites. In NJ, there was no way I was leaving my animals outside. period. vitalites were worthless. period. So that left me with NO UVB, and NO D3 for my animals.

My first pair of veilds were LTC adults, and the male developed Calcium problems a few months later. Some Ca shots and repcal cured him up quick. I needed to go through this to discover rep-cal, which was fairly new, and only the vet had actually "heard" of it.

SO I began to use rep-cal(this was before it was a fine powder, and didn't stick very well). I used it just about every day on all my chameleons. I raised 3 females from 1-2 month old to adults, and mated them, and incubated the eggs, and hatched the eggs, and raised these babies(some to adulthood and breeding themselves)for 2-4 months before selling them.

All in all, I hatched out and raised several clutches of veilds, without A N Y ultraviolet B light, no unfiltered sun, and absolutly NO artificial UVB--EVER. Only 100W sylvania incandecent bulbs and cheap plant growlights that were 3-5 years old themselves.

They all recived rep-cal every day to every other day when little. They got reptivite(and when it came out, herptivite) once a week.

I NEVER had a single health problem with my animals except for tho instances. A coccidia problem that overran my male eventually(he came with it, and was pretty old when I got him), and females becoming unable to lay all their eggs, from being mated TOO young [this was when the "rumor" was not known to be a rumor(at least by me...no internet at the time), and I mated all my females ASAP].

never any calcium problems, never any other problems.

I raised my deremensis and veild from tiny babies to adults with NO Uvb, just rep-cal or miner-all.

Ironically, the only MBD I have had since that first WC male 10 years ago was a few months ago--in the ONLY baby chameleons I used UVB on !!!

I am under the impression that their fast growth from the start was too fast, and my lowering their intake of food(to what I used to feed my veilds at that size) did not slow them down. instead, they continued to grow at a tremendous rate(and were able to eat adult sized crickets at 2.5 months old), but they did not get the nutrients they needed.

I had them under a new reptisun, LESS than 8 inches away from them, and gave them repcal every 2-3 days.

They turned to mush.
I actually though I would lose one of them.
I put a MV bulb above them, gave them some neocalglucon, then started upping the repcal.

They are both deformed(one more than the other) but they have stronger bones, and are getting big.

It seems that they DID slow down in growth after they went mushy. It only took about a week for them to stp shaking, and become more mobile again.

I was clear that their diet, supplementation a dn lighting were NOT at fault, but neither was their breeder.

I got them from Rob at RK, and I know for a fact that they were top rate, and the others that bought them had no problems.

The problem was that their growth rate was VERY high. Most people are feeding the babies a lot, and they grow like that.
I intentionally feed mine less, so I get slower growth. It's worked in the past perfectly.

The problem was that I wasn't feeding them for their first month or two, and they were eating a lot more than mine would have, and subsequently were on to a much faster start. When they came into my care, they didn't slow down in growth, but I slowed down their intake of food. I 'm pretty sure this is where the problem was. I had never seen such BIG veilds for their age, and I should have taken that fast growth into consideration and fed them more than I did. Additionally, they were raised in full sunlight, and their metabolism may have needed to adjust to the artificial D3 they were getting,as the reptisun was NOT near the sun's intensity. thankfully, they're resilient little girls, and are looking awesome, despite the crooked legs, adn will hopefully be big enough in a few months to start hanging out with my big guy...

BAck on subject...
option #1
UVB to Skin to D3 Ca to bone&muscle operation&nerve function=healthy, strong, chameleons.
This method is the best, because it limits the amount of mistakes you can make, and the less a role we have in the metabolisim of these things, the higher the likelyhood things will play out the way they are designed to.

option#2
Rep-cal to digestive system to blood to muscle&bone& nerve function=healthy chameleon, but TOO MUCH or TOO LITTLE D3 can lead to problems witht the digestive system/Ca-D3 absorbtion, and subsequent musce, nerve bone problems.
This method can be done, but leaves MUCH room for error. Blances must be found, and this by-passes the chameleons natural biological processes in D3/Ca synthesis/absorbtion.
I've done it, with excellent results. However, you need to be careful not to overdose or underdose.

Option #3

USe UV lighting, and supplement with D3.
just to be sure
Go EASY on artificial supplements--very easy when using GOOD UV sources(sunlight or MV)

SO, No, UV lighting is NOT absolutly necessary. What will I say when I sell my baby chameleons next time?
"Buy a MV bulb, and save a lot of trouble. If you want to keep it outside, do so, but use MV in the fall/winter."

Chameleons were designed to be in the sun, or at least recieve UVB FROM it through the canopy to some degree. They did not evolve to be recieving it through powdered form. We CANNOT fully replicate nature. Certain things in nature can be copied, other cannot. Things like diet, variation in food, hydration, temperature humidity, light and UV light can be simulated to a fairly high degree. In these cases, I recommend going for it. As much as possible. It;ll be eaiser.

Look at iguanas. How many get broken bones? it;s disgusting. These animals fall from their perch and break their legs. They are getting reptisun 5.0's and still have weak bone density.

In the wild,, they jump from trees 50 feet in the air and hit the ground running. something is wrong there. With sunlight or MV bulbs, iguanas don't break bones. ChameleonsDOn't Break bones. My male veild was in an 8 foot high cage a few years back, and I rmember him falling off the top (upside down on the screen) onto the edge of the 2X12 that was supporting the cage on the ground. I thought he was dead when I saw him hit. Nope. Smacked right onto it, and took off across the ground, up the tree and back to the perch. No injury. These things jump out of tree to avoid danger, they sholdn't be breaking bones.

5% of the suns radiation isn't going to do much, but it'll do some. If you use a 5% bulb, use rep-cal or minerall.

A Mv bulb WILL give them enough UV to build strong bones. I have seen some veidls raised with NO supplements, just a MV bulb, and they are perfect.

That's the way to go.

chameleoncrow Dec 17, 2003 01:01 PM

NP

chameleoncrow Dec 17, 2003 01:02 PM

NP

eric adrignola Dec 17, 2003 02:18 PM

when I was breeding them in large numbers. I wasn't even gutloading, as a matter of fact, just feeding the crickets and superworms fish food and corn meal.

Now that technology has advanced, we have practicle, worthwile, and EFFECTIVE UVB lighting.

Mv sems to be the best way to go. I just hope they can produce them more affordably, so they become more available to the kids paying $35 for a chameleon...

kah2658 Dec 27, 2003 02:34 AM

OH MY GOD!!!! That is sooooo intresting! I have a clutch that i have kept, and one on them was a glutten!!! HE ate everything I could put infront of him, but now has bad MBD probs..... and his other SIBS are OK, well most of them, a few have probs also but not like him!!!!!! The 2 female Chams arew fine .... they eat ALOT, and have no MBD probs, but the brothers , well 4 of them do... out of a clutch of 10.... the one with the most probs. well he ate the most food of them all... and GREW big fast!!!! I knew he would have some trouble, like he couldnt cary his own weight! But he bullied all the others, even killing a few, to get at the food! He is OK now - with much medical attention! WIERD

Happy Holidays!!!!!! Karen

cv768 Dec 17, 2003 11:34 PM

np
-----
Chris

1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

chamsrcool Dec 16, 2003 08:18 PM

yes i have heard of this in other species but not in chams.

Chams and other tropical(raiforest type) species
(iguanas,water dragons ect..) need to have some UVB. some people that own lizards like anoles,beardies,andday geckos have been using powder vit. that are high in d3 and calcium so that the uvb isn't as important but it is allot beetter for the animal if they can make the d3 and sinthesize calcium naturaly with the uvb.

chameleoncrow Dec 16, 2003 09:37 PM

yes...i have heard this too. In fact, I think there is a person who frequents this forum doesn't use UVB, and has been keeping chameleons for years. Of course, lots of calcium with D3 is used. But of course it would be best if the chameleon is able to metabolize calcium itself with UVB , so that over-supplementation doesn't take place.

cv768 Dec 16, 2003 11:40 PM

np
-----
Chris

1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

cv768 Dec 17, 2003 04:45 PM

n/p
-----
Chris

1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

Carlton Dec 17, 2003 10:15 PM

Experiences vary. I have used UV lights for years with Minerall and gutloading and have never had a cham develop MBD or other deficiencies. I don't consider them a waste, just insurance. After all, a UVB light won't hurt the cham.

cv768 Dec 17, 2003 11:33 PM

np
-----
Chris

1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

ChrisAnderson Dec 18, 2003 09:45 AM

Taking precautions in the face of expences is one of the difference between a good, reliable breeder and someone who has no right having these animals. The latter are not concerned enough for their animals well being to spend that relatively little amount of money (compared to vet costs for MBD) to do all they can to prevent it. Sure it may be possible to avoid MBD without UVB but you're risking a lot more. I personally see a breeder who is concerned about the costs of UVB lighting and would consider not using it to cut costs as an individual working for profit in disregard to the animals. Those are the type of people that give credibility to those trying to ban keeping chameleons/reptile at all. Just my 2 cents...
Chris
-----
Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

cv768 Dec 18, 2003 11:54 AM

n/p
-----
Chris

1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

Carlton Dec 19, 2003 07:00 PM

I totally agree with you Chris! UVB lighting won't hurt anything, even if it is proved to be just a hedge against trouble rather than an absolute necessity. I prefer to give my animals as much of their "natural" living condition as possible. If I can't house outdoors I will at least give them exposure to artificial sun. It probably affects emotional health and wellbeing even if the medical affects are not completely figured out. I don't breed, but spend a lot on UV lighting for large free range spaces. I don't begrudge it a bit and neither should a breeder.

Carlton Dec 19, 2003 07:08 PM

Another thought here. There is some evidence that chams see more of the light spectrum than humans. We don't really know what they see. If no naturally occurring UV is given them how might that affect prey selection, mate recognition, stress level, etc?

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