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genetics

paulmorlock Dec 17, 2003 12:06 AM

I would first like to say tht the following is based on my experience and is not genetics "law" because noone understands all the genetic posibilities

The cells that produce pigment are called chromatophores. There are 3 types in reptiles, Melanophores,Xanthophores and Iridophores. Melanophores produce the dark pigments(blacks and browns). The Xanthophores produce the colored pigments, yellows,oranges,reds and everything inbetween. The iridphores actually do not produce pigment persay but are actually platelet like structures that reflect and/or defract light. These are usually responsible for the whites and the iridescents in reptiles.

That being said I will try to explain hypomelanism. Hypomelanism is defined as "having less than normal melanin" The cells producing this color are present but do not function properly. This definition leaves much room for interpitation. You have to take into account that dragons all have he ability to lighten or darken to some degree. On top of that some animals are also naturally lighter than others. Hypomelanism is a genetic mutation which is usually recessive,dominant or co-dominant, in dragons it's recessive. This is why I say just because an animal is light does not mean it is hypo. If at any time an animal diplays normal amounts of melanin it connot be considered hypo because hypos cannot show this color normaly. In my experiece when breeding two light animals with black claws, they do not necessarly pass thier "lightness" to thier offspring. Some will be light and some wont(a hereditary trait). When breeding 2 animals with clear claws you will get all offspring with clear claws(a recssive trait). Hypomelanism also does not effect any other colors. You can have hypo animals in white,yellow, orange,red or anything inbetween. These animals are also harder to breed because thier beards usually do not get black and the females dont respond accordingly.

The translucents are technically hypoiristic. The definition is "having less than normal iridophores", the white. I am one of the original producers of these animals and can say this is also a recessive trait. All the animals you may have seen so far with this trait have been produced by breeding het to het.

"Leucistic" dragons DO NOT EXIST!! True leucistic animals are missing the chromatophores completely. They do not have the ability to produce any skin pigment at all. Leucistic animals are PURE white with either blue, black or dark brown eyes, blue being the predominant eye color. I have seen many so called leucistic animals and have noticed that most are simply light animals with very little color(red,orange,yellow)leaving the animal predominately a light cream or white color. Some have had clear claws, they would be hypo. I believe these are also the same as the "snows". However I have seen some animals that actually are colored white, not just missing the melanin or light in color. These animals also had some yellow and orange in the head so they definately were not leucistic. I believe they are "Hyperiristic" (having excessive white). This may or may not be recessive.

And last but not least...To my knowledge the bright colors(red,oranges an yellows)produced by the xanthophores are for the most part hereditary. This would explain the difficulty in reproducng the intense colors desired by most people. When breeding for these colors I generaly get a few that resemble each parent and the rest are a nice mix of color from both parents. If they were recessive or dominant we would see many more animals with these colors around. I am not saying that its not possible to have a geneic mutation with these cells that may produce more or less intense colors. I have a pair of hypo yellows that last year consisantly produced about 95% offsping that turned out to be as bright or brighter than the parents. These may be hyperxanthic. Only time will tell.

wheeew... hope this wasnt to confusing LOL
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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

Replies (12)

RaderRVT Dec 17, 2003 12:54 AM

Paul,

That is the best explanation I have heard yet. Even a newbie like me can understand. I was feeling like an idiot because I my degree is in biology with the emphasis being genetics and molecular biology and I have not understood one single genetics thread thoroughly until now. Everyone was sing terms I know, but not in the contest I know. THANK YOU!! I can go to bed not feeling like a total moron.
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Stacey

DuncanGSI Dec 17, 2003 05:39 AM

Paul, you say:

"Leucistic" dragons DO NOT EXIST!! True leucistic animals are missing the chromatophores completely. They do not have the ability to produce any skin pigment at all.

They have no chromatophores at all, or just don't have the abillity to produce skin pigment?

Could you please explane the Albino dragons for me, because as far as i know, they can have yellow pigments while tey can't produce any skinpigment.
They pigment is caused by the irridophores not by producing pigment but the way they reflect light or their physical apperance.
please look at this:

www.dachiu.com/albino.html

Can this be the case in "Leucistics" wich have some yellow color?????

thanks,

Duncan
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paulmorlock Dec 17, 2003 06:54 AM

Albinos are typically amelanistic, missing only the dark pigments (completely). This is why you still see yellows & orange over white in most albino species. This also accounts for the pink eyes. Truly, the only difference between albino and some hypomelanistics is the existence of melanin in the eyes. Again, leucistic dragons DO NOT exist. The example would not account for the yellow seen in them as none of them have blue, black or dark brown eyes. Also a true leucistic would not be able to produce the yellows, reds or oranges. If they do, they are not by genetic definition a leucistic.
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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

grimdog Dec 17, 2003 07:49 AM

Hey Paul, so there is definately a line of hypo dragons that are reccesive? Do you have any pics of them. Sorry I am so skeptical of them. Just think if hypo is reccesive then there are a lot of dragons that are being missrepresented as hypo. I am truely interested about hypo dragons being reccesive. You got any pics of whole clutches from het to het or know where I can see some.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Mattman Dec 17, 2003 08:22 AM

If you take a look at my site the three Hypo dragons I have there are hypo dragons and recessive to. Don't mind the True in front of their names this was put to differentiate these from the other dragons being passed off as hypomelanistic using the "Pastel" name. If I breed the male and the female I have listed either Kami, buddy X Reaya all offspring will be Hypomelanistic Clear nailed dragons. If I breed any of those two males to Kiya I will get a percentage hypomelanistic and some not showing the trait but het for it. Take a look at the Dachiu's site where they explain the breedings, and what they expect to get from them. Some of their breeding this season where het greeny x hypo pastel ect. and I can truly say you can look into their bins of those offspring, and pick out the hets by eye from the ones showing the hypomelanistic traits.
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Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

paulmorlock Dec 17, 2003 06:02 PM

Yes, there are a lot of dragons out there being misrepresented as hypo. That's one of the reasons I tried to explain hypomelanism and why a light animal is not necessarily hypomelanistic. If you would like to see pictures you can check out my picture gallery here on kingsnake. All of the hypos are labeled as such. I don't have any pictures of whole clutches, but as I said before in an earlier post I have been working with the hypos for quite a long time. In fact, because I am a representative for Sandfire Dragon Ranch the hypos are my main concentration. Bob does hatch hypomelanistic animals, but he does not breed specifically for them. This way I am not cutting directly into his business. Some of the yellow and orange animals in my picture gallery are the product of more than 5 years labor. The original hypomelanistics didn't really have a lot of the intense colors throghout the body. Some of my animals have so much color that it actually continues onto the belly. If you want to discuss this more you can email me at paul@sandfiredragonranch.com
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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

brdfreak Dec 17, 2003 01:21 PM

how to word it. Shame on you Stacey for not chiming in and setting us straight on some of that stuff!!! Bad Stacey bad.... :-P
So would hypoxanthic relay an inability to produce color if hyperxanthic intensifies or promotes an excessive amount of color? If so could this be the reason that the dragons currnetly termed hypo drop their color after second or third shed? Or would a trait like that be evident from the beginning?

Now I feel like I'm beginning to understand this ALOT better. Thanks Paul for the KILLER explanation! Is there any books I can read on this? I mean other than biology text books? Thanks again.

Robert Wood

brdfreak Dec 17, 2003 02:18 PM

!!

paulmorlock Dec 17, 2003 06:04 PM

No, I don't have a website yet. Up until this year I haven't really bred very large quantities of animals. I prefer quality over quantity and I'm usually able to sell my offspring through word of mouth alone.
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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

paulmorlock Dec 17, 2003 08:13 PM

No, if an animal were hypoxanthic that would mean the animal would "not" have the ability to produce significant amounts of red,orange or yellow. If an animal has good color to begin with and that color fades with age it is either hereditary or it could be lack of "complete" husbandry. There are many factors that contribute to the intensity of the xanthophores. Light is probably the most important, and not just UV. The intensity of full spectrum light(visible and invisible) actually plays the biggest role. Also diet, cage size,humidity, and overall health, both physical and mental. Stress can manifest in many ways and is also a major role player. Also dont forget about natural selection. There are reasons dragons produce so many offspring in a single season. The natural mortality rate is very high and mother nature will try many different color variations to ensure success.
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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

timdaly Dec 19, 2003 11:33 PM

I just wanted to thank you so much Paul for sharing your passion with the world. You produce some of the nicest dragons I have ever seen and I thank you for providing us the opportunity to own such stunning reptiles! The hypoiristic and hypomelanistic Dragon that you had at the National Breeders Expo in Philadelphia is a work of art! With the black eyes and clear nails, what a dragon!!!. I can’t wait to see what comes up next!!!

Tim Daly,
Ottawa, Canada
tdalyn215@rogers.com

paulmorlock Dec 20, 2003 01:57 AM

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Paul Morlock
of CaptiveCreations and
Retail Sales Rep. for Sandfire Dragon Ranch

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