Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok I'm a little upset, I just wrote this long post and **poof** ya hit a wrong button and it all goes bye bye.

OK well here is the extreamly short version of it and then I guess I can go into details later if need be.

But aside from what Kathy states in her book, Why is it so taboo to house two corns together (note: I said house, not feed)?

This isn't meant to start a flame war or overly heated debate. I would just like more reasons then "Just don't do it...ever".
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Chantel a.k.a. sillygirl
"I came, I saw, I adopted"

2.4.0 green anoles (Stumpy (M)), and the rest remain nameless.
2.2.0 green tree frogs (Romeo & Juliet, Bonnie & Clyde)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Cobalt froglets)
0.0.1 Anerythristic 'B' (Charcoal)corn snake (Popcorn)
0.0.1 Snow Corn (KandyKorn)
0.2 Amel Corns (KornSilk & KornMuffin)
0.0.1 Giant African Millipede
2.4 Domestic house cats (Bad Boy (m), Bart(m),Sasha(F),Little Bit(F),Spirit(F)
1.0 Rottweiler (Jake)
1.2 Rats (new additions with no names yet)
1.0 Husband (David, who loves all my critters too)

Its never a good idea to ask that question here regardless of your intent, unfortunately. My advice is to just go through old posts. Thats what I did. There are a couple long threads that are actually rare gems of information on this topic. Maybe I can see if I can find those.

Like I said before, it's not meant to start a debate, it's meant to inform and educate not only me but others who read this board as well.
I have read all the old posts, and if you can find the thread where it was discussed in more then "don't do it" terms I would be more then happy to read it. But to say that the Corn snake forum isn't the place to ask a question about housing corn snakes is a bit absurd.

Thanks
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Chantel a.k.a. sillygirl
"I came, I saw, I adopted"

2.4.0 green anoles (Stumpy (M)), and the rest remain nameless.
2.2.0 green tree frogs (Romeo & Juliet, Bonnie & Clyde)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Cobalt froglets)
0.0.1 Anerythristic 'B' (Charcoal)corn snake (Popcorn)
0.0.1 Snow Corn (KandyKorn)
0.2 Amel Corns (KornSilk & KornMuffin)
0.0.1 Giant African Millipede
2.4 Domestic house cats (Bad Boy (m), Bart(m),Sasha(F),Little Bit(F),Spirit(F)
1.0 Rottweiler (Jake)
1.2 Rats (new additions with no names yet)
1.0 Husband (David, who loves all my critters too)

What I was saying was, in the past the posts have never proved educational - even when people wanted them to be. I know becuase I have asked the same question in the say way twice. I do remember though that there are two threads that exist where people who keep multiple snakes together acutally spoke up (I think they normally dont becuase they find it not worth it beuase people always flame them - I assume this becuase this is why I dont post my answers).

This I say for general purpose. But I can email you if you want my answer to your question, which I feel is less subjective, and I know you can house more than one together but its a long answer which I can glady email.

I actually think the thread went rather well considering the heat this topic draws. Although I'm not entirely sure why, it's like the debate of cooked vs. undercooked beef. Both sides have their appeal, one side can be considered potentially dangerous, but in the end it's a matter of personal opinion (I like mine med. rare thank you).

But please, by all means e-mail me off board if you don't want to post it. I'm rather easy to get along with, but I'm not the person who says "Why?" but rather "Why not?".
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Chantel a.k.a. sillygirl
"I came, I saw, I adopted"

2.4.0 green anoles (Stumpy (M)), and the rest remain nameless.
2.2.0 green tree frogs (Romeo & Juliet, Bonnie & Clyde)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Cobalt froglets)
0.0.1 Anerythristic 'B' (Charcoal)corn snake (Popcorn)
0.0.1 Snow Corn (KandyKorn)
0.2 Amel Corns (KornSilk & KornMuffin)
0.1 Normal Corn (PepperKorn)
0.0.1 Giant African Millipede
2.4 Domestic house cats (Bad Boy (m), Bart(m),Sasha(F),Little Bit(F),Spirit(F)
1.0 Rottweiler (Jake)
1.2 Rats (new additions with no names yet)
1.0 Husband (David, who loves all my critters too)

Siily girl,

I take it for granted that you really don't know and are asking a question for informations sake. So here is a real answer for you.

First a little background, we have been keeping, breeding and caring for herps for over 35 years. In that period of time we have seen every specie of snake eat another snake. If you think about it snakes are prefectly shaped for another snake to swallow. No shoulders etc. We had a female corn that ate the male we were trying to breed her with three years in a row. I have had boas feed on other boas, corns feed on ball pythons ( a customer had that happen three years ago with a community cage ) etc. etc. etc. In most cases it happens due to an activated feeding response when the animals are placed back in the same cage and they is the residual smell from just having fed. But some animals are just prone to that activity.

In addtion to that problem there is a real and concerning problem with the husbandry needs of your animals. If one gets sick they will both more than likely do so. etc. etc.

One other thing you need to consider when you are contemplating housing two animals together is that most snakes are not communal animals and the stress induced by keeping two animals in the same cage is easy to see many times and manifests itself in a variety of ways.

Bottom line, have all of us at one time or another had to keep more than one animal per cage? Most definetly but as a general rule for the overall well being of the respective animals it is something that should be avoided whenever possible.

Good Luck
John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms

Thank you John, that was the type of answer I was looking for. It's not that I am totally inexperienced. But like everyone else who has ever been new to the hobby, you can here ten different opinions about how to raise one animal, who's right? I've seen breeders of animals that had horrible husbandry, but yet the animals still breed. And I've seen the small collector who is more up to speed on the species care and breeding then most vets are. Again, who does one believe? I used to keep my green anoles and green tree frogs together, because I've heard several people say that you could. It wasn't till my frogs started getting sickly looking that I seperated them and now they are doing wonderfully. Lesson was learned.
As far as my snakes go, I consider myself very lucky (and diligent) in their care. Out of the five corn snakes I have, they are all awsome feeders never refusing a meal even when they are about to shed, never have regurged (well except one once when her heat got unplugged by accident) and are extreamly tame and calm.

Thanks again John for the honest reply. I appreciate it.

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Chantel a.k.a. sillygirl
"I came, I saw, I adopted"

2.4.0 green anoles (Stumpy (M)), and the rest remain nameless.
2.2.0 green tree frogs (Romeo & Juliet, Bonnie & Clyde)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Cobalt froglets)
0.0.1 Anerythristic 'B' (Charcoal)corn snake (Popcorn)
0.0.1 Snow Corn (KandyKorn)
0.2 Amel Corns (KornSilk & KornMuffin)
0.1 Normal Corn (PepperKorn)
0.0.1 Giant African Millipede
2.4 Domestic house cats (Bad Boy (m), Bart(m),Sasha(F),Little Bit(F),Spirit(F)
1.0 Rottweiler (Jake)
1.2 Rats (new additions with no names yet)
1.0 Husband (David, who loves all my critters too)

np.

Reasons to not house them together:

1. If one is larger than the other, then the smaller could end up snake food.

2. Snakes are solitary creatures and only come together for a couple of reasons:
a)to mate
b)to hibernate

Putting them together in an enclosure could stress one or both animals. Stress can have a bunch of negative effects; going off feed, become nippy and agitated and a decline in health just being a few.

3. If they are a pair, the female could become pregnant too soon in life. This could kill her if she is physically too small to lay the eggs. If she survives such an ordeal, she may become infertile and never be able to produce offspring.

4. Illness - if one snake becomes ill, then it is almost sure the other snake will catch the bug if it is contagious. And it is hard to diagnose which snake is sick with both of them in the cage.

5. Cleanliness - the enclosure will become dirty twice as fast with twice the amount of waste. If not cleaned, this can lead to some nasty virus or bacteria infecting your animals.

6. One that may or may not be so important, is that if one snake accidentaly escapes, then you may have 2 missing instead of just one.

It doesnt cost that much to get another setup for an additional animal. To me it is worth my animals health to properly house them.

Hope this helps.
Brian Baker

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Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

I hesitate to even post this as it may be construed as advocating keeping snakes together and feeding live rodents - I do not advocate that. I have a long FAQ detailing the dangers of doing so, which I have emailed to Sillygirl already (email me if anyone else wants it). But there are two sides, so here is my very long opinion about the matter. Take it for whatever it is worth to you.

Although it is easier to be successful following the usual advice of keeping them separately and feeding frozen/thawed rodents, there are many who are successful doing the exact opposite. To those who are very careful and doing everything right while going against the norms - you can't argue with success! Even though it is more difficult to keep track of things with two or more together (and often, but not always, more stressful for the corns and can result in early pregnancy and other problems), it doesn't mean it can't be done. There are added precautions to be taken as well as added risks. It is not usually worth the added effort or additional slight risk for most people, but that is something that each person has to decide for themselves. The main problem is that it is usually beginners with new babies who want to do it - just asking for more problems than they might already have. I can tell you that even though I consider myself pretty experienced in corns, if I start working with a totally new species, I will follow the generally accepted advice with that species while gaining experience. Only when I feel I have some success with that species will I start to tinker with the accepted "recipe for success" that has already been established. On the other hand, nothing new would ever be learned if some people didn't experiment, keep records, and report their success and failures.

On the subject of risk, we do risky things every day and have to judge the risk vs. the benefits. The most dangerous thing IMHO is probably shipping them, although if done properly it is not very risky. In carefully controlled circumstances, I feel that housing together and feeding live rodents can be a lot less dangerous than shipping and other risky things we do. But please do not construe this as an invitation for beginners to throw all of their newly acquired corns together in a bin with a bunch of live rats!

Some experienced keepers offering advice get into the "never" or "always" do or don't this or that. But I go more for "usually" something works better than another thing . But each circumstance is different. Keepers who have a little experience and actually think about the likely consequences of what they are doing (and how to deal with them) can often successfully do things that beginners or "non-thinkers" will do haphazardly and unsuccessfully. Listen to all good advice, and then make your own informed decision based on your own circumstances and judgment.

Sorry for the long post, but I think this side of the "debate" should be aired, too.

Good luck!

For being brave enough to speak the other side of the issue, even if you don't advocate it.

So when is your next book?
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Chantel a.k.a. sillygirl
"I came, I saw, I adopted"

2.4.0 green anoles (Stumpy (M)), and the rest remain nameless.
2.2.0 green tree frogs (Romeo & Juliet, Bonnie & Clyde)
0.0.3 D. tinctorius (Cobalt froglets)
0.0.1 Anerythristic 'B' (Charcoal)corn snake (Popcorn)
0.0.1 Snow Corn (KandyKorn)
0.2 Amel Corns (KornSilk & KornMuffin)
0.1 Normal Corn (PepperKorn)
0.0.1 Giant African Millipede
2.4 Domestic house cats (Bad Boy (m), Bart(m),Sasha(F),Little Bit(F),Spirit(F)
1.0 Rottweiler (Jake)
1.2 Rats (new additions with no names yet)
1.0 Husband (David, who loves all my critters too)

I dont mean to equate myself with the illustrious Kathy Love, but thats what I have been trying to say.

Thank you for saying that Kathy, because I know people will listen to you. Thats good enough for me.

It is ultimately up to each individual what they do. The have the rights to turn thier corns into belts if they so choose. I keep most of my collection alone and encourage others to do so but I have kept some sucessfully together. My whole take on the situation is; It is the right thing to do to warn people what CAN happen. So at least thier decision can be an educated one. With my first corn pair (before I found forums and such), I was told that it would be perfectly fine to house them together and there would be no problems. When I asked about them breeding too early, I was told that male cornsnakes are infertile unless you brumate them and the female would not get pregnant(gravid). Needless to say, within a year I was heart broken with a dead eggbound pet. If I had any idea this could have happened, I would have NEVER kept them together and I wish someone had told me the risks. On the bright side, I hatched four healthy babies out of the eggs that did make it out and it started an out of control love for breeding the darn things. I just like to tell people what could happen, I believe it is the fair thing to do. If someone asked about it and we all said "Fine go for it, some people say it's bad but they're just uptight", and that person happened to be really attached to thier pet and ended up losing it to complications due to housing together, I sure bet they would be wishing someone warned them. I sure did. But I agree, once someone has made thier educated dicision, they do not deserve to be slammed for it, it's really none of our business.

perfectly said!!!

i've housed male corns togeather and they thrived I've since seperated them because I switched to rubbermaids and can afford to buy seperate enclosures
they're doing well eating well and all around are healthy snakes
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Girlfriend: Your room smells like reptiles!
Me: Are you saying that my Balls smell?

I agree with everything you say, Kathy! it IS important to start with teh "recipe for success" but I honestly think that people gain much deeper understanding of their animals by pressing a little bit against the boundaries of that recipe... make some mistakes, learn by them, grow, until you KNOW what works and WHY it works.

When i first started raising feeders, I was as fascinated with my little rodents as I am with my snakes. I was frequenting a lot of "pet forums" and found I got so horribly flamed, and so much of the advice seemed utterly extreme, so I stopped "going there" and started to learn on my own. I like to believe that now I have a very strong understanding of mice, both inside and out... I know what works and what doesn't. I can look at any age rodent and (95% of the time) pick out their gender, and I can glance at a cage full of mice and know right away if one of them is sick. If snakes bred as fast as mice... well there wouldn't be any mice left, but even so, I feel once I've had a few dozen generations of snakes, I'll know snakes backwards and forwards. But in the meantime I don't listen with strength to anyone who becomes RABID about any specific piece of advice. If someone is rabidly against something I'm contrary enough to try it.

Of course lucky for me, there are actually some scientific papers out there that explain WHY certain things are bad... so I don't have to make ALL the mistakes (no cedar). But it's all a process of learning. The more we learn by experience, the more we can tell people our opinion backed up with our own experiences rather than those of others.

One has only to cut a live pinkie in half to know WHY you don't feed two hatchling corns in the same container. (Day ONE of Corn Snake Ownership... and I was convinced!)
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~Sasheena

I forget who I have cut and pasted this for in the past, but if you would really like to be aware of some reasons.... here is what I can come up with. Good Luck with your keeping adventures!

You can sucessfully keep two corns together, but there is also a lot that can grow wrong. I personally keep most of my corns housed alone, but I do have a few females that sharge a cage while I am making room for them. Honestly though, if I have a certain one that is either very expensive or one of my favorites, I can assure you I won't take the risk. Here are some cons...

1. One or both corns may get stressed out. A beginner keeper may not even notice the signs of a stressed out corn and prolonged stress can lead to illness.

2. It will be nearly impossible to tell who is the culprit if someone regurges or leaves other "clues" to illness in the cage.

3. If the two snakes are not from the same source a quanantine time of at least six months is advised or they can transmit parasites to one another. It is impossible to quarntine if kept together.

4. If the snakes are a sexual pair and not of breeding age, they will breed before the female is physically able to handle the demands of breeding and can very likly lead to fatal complications and perhaps unwanted hatchlings.

5. If it is a sexual pair and they are breeding size, they will breed. Female corns need to be alone while they are gravid, and having another snake in there will only stress out the female during a time where she should be made as content as possible. This also can lead to fatel complications with egg-laying.

6. Lone males put together may fight unexpectedly and suddenly during mating season. One day they may be fine, the other they may be engaged in a battle.

7. I have heard of a few instances that even though the corns were fed separately, when put back together in the same cage one "smelled" the lingering mouse smell on the other and constricted it's cagemate to death.

8. Caniballism in corns is not THAT rare. I've seen hatchlings attempt it in my own home both this year and last.

I am sure there is some I left out, but those are some serious risks to consider before you decide. Oh yeah, I forgot the pros.

1. It saves you a little bit of space.