Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Recent discussions of average weight in young BP got me curious. So I spent the last several hours putting together an Excel spread sheet showing the weights of 22 of my 03’ ball pythons. I don’t know how to make an attachment of the spreadsheet to a post, so I went ahead and made the information into several jpegs. First is the conclusions I came up with~

Now remember, this is only on 22 snakes~ so not exactly a scientific study! I’ll put up the charts I used to make the averages in the next post. ~ Don’t want to drive in dial-up users crazy.

Okay, so here are the charts. I used the first 6 consecutive months of information rather than going by individual month. I thought the numbers would reflect more accurately. There is a LOT of variance in these. “Winter” and “#4” have never fed voluntarily (Only assist feeds) and “#1” and “#9” would probably eat a doorknob if I warmed it up first!

so a ball python going from 300g in march to 1700g now is too much of a gain right. i mean if one of your snakes (female 1) averaged out around 600 grams from may until now then this other guys' snake is doing bad having gained more than twice that amount (1400g) since march.

I honestly can't say what is "Good" or not. Just what I have observed. This is my first year keeping this large number of snakes, and my first year keeping weight rocords. I weigh mid month and mark down the weight just out of my own curiosity. These numbers are based on food being offered every 5 days until September of this year. Now once a week (Wednesday~ gotta go feed now!)

I do suspect #1 of being obese. She has stopped feeding this last month though, so maybe she was just laying in some reserve? I suppose we shall see what the 12 month average is and if she levels out?

I may remove Winter and #4 from the chart at some point as well. I'm not sure about having "Non-feeders" in a chart demonstrating averages of "Normal" behavior.

Exactly my point! No one seems to know what is "good" and what is "bad." There have been no studies that I am aware of and no one has been able to provide any proof since my original post. Just a lot of speculation, stories about someone who knew someone who had 2 die at 2 years of age, etc. I am assuming now, but did those 2 that died, have a control group that were grown slower that all didn't die? Did those 2 die for another reason and was fast growth blamed because it was a convenient excuse? Did the person that had those 2 die have a lot of experience raising animals so they had some idea of what they were talking about, or were those the only 2 Ball Pythons they owned? A lot of people "assume" slower must be better. Why do they assume this? There are a lot of variables that no one seems to consider. (prey size/cage temps/etc.) My pastels are the best eating balls I have had and they get fed every 4 to 6 days. They have gone from:

Female- 178 grams when received and now is 632 grams (and she hasn't eaten in 3 weeks, I assume from a winter hunger strike as a lot are off feed now) So, in exactly 3 days short of 3 months (and only about 2 month on feed!) she has gained 454 grams.

Male- 164 grams when received and now is 740 (just defecated so it isn't weight based on being a full animal). So, in exactly 3 days short of 3 months he has gained 576 grams.

This growth is a little over double your average, and significantly more than the one you consider obese.

Are mine growing that much faster because of larger food items being fed? I raise all my own mice and rats. Could it be due to different food that is fed to my mice and rats? (I buy my rodent food wholesale from someone who has it made up to his specs. so it doesn't come from Harlan, Mazuri, etc.--you definitely can't get it unless you are a local pet shop or a laboratory or college in California).

Again, where's the proof and why assume slower is better. I could just as easily assume your animals are slightly stunted, and that could be bad for them in the long run! (I am not saying they are stunted or attacking your practices, just making a logical argument.)

I find it very ironic how many people jumped on my other post as impossible growth rates, animals are way over-fed, etc. and when I posted a breeding pic., I got responses saying the opposite! Some thought they might be just a little thin! Again, people are assuming a lot.

Again, I don't know either way, but assuming one thing is better or worse than the other doesn't make much sense when there is no proof either way. Without studies, using controls and using various temps. on many animals-- and not just relying on isolated stories that are unscientific at best. Who's to say?

Rodney

I certainly did not mean to imply there was anything wrong with anyone's husbandry~ I just thought it was interesting, and still do.

Answers to a few of the questions in your post~
1~ NO, I do not think this is a "Scientific" study and I don't have control groups. These are just my observations in my collection

2~ I don't know anything about any dead ball pythons

3~ Food items being offered are rats and mice I breed myself. I feed a mixture of dog food, rolled oats and refridgerator scraps (I clean out the fridge into the rat/mice tubs every Sunday, and any dinner scraps we have go to the rats/mice).

4~ Most all of them started on mice, all but #8, #10, #16, and #19 have transfered to rats at various times over the 6 months.

5~ The reason I suspect #1 of being obese is the drastic difference in her weight in relation to the other 21 snakes on the same feed schedule. ~ And she looks like a snausage! I am hoping she was just packing it on during the summer and now will grow some length to catch up with her girth!!

Did I answer them all? This is interesting isn't it?

It's a lot bigger deal for a 100 gram snake to gain 50 grams in a month than it is for a 1,000 gram snake so you need to normalize the weight gain by looking at it as a percentage of the beginning of the month weight. From JM's and other similar data I've seen it looks like younger animals are able to gain at a higher percentage. When you compare percentage wise JM and Rodmalm gains aren't that far off and unless JM's slow down as they age JM might well have several 1,700 gram snakes at the same presumed age.

Here are JM's weight gains for the 2nd through 6th month (the period for which all 22 snakes are represented):

36%
71%
63%
24%
22%

The hatchlings aren't eating right out of the egg so you would expect the first month to be slow. It's hard to predict how this might have projected out over the next 9 months but maybe it would have held in the mid to low 20% weight gain per month (maybe even higher if factors such as fall where causing low gains in the 5th and 6th months). Maybe JM can keep up the good recordkeeping work and let us know in 9 months.

Here is a projection of a hatchling gaining 22% per month for 16 months. Notice that in the last 9 months (i.e. March to December) the snake went from 300 grams to over 1,700 grams. However, it took 7 months to get to 300 grams while JM did this in less than 5 months (JM's chart starts at 1 so month 2 is the first months gain).

Month - Weight
0 - 75
1 - 91
2 - 111
3 - 135
4 - 165
5 - 202
6 - 246
7 - 300
8 - 366
9 - 447
10 - 545
11 - 665
12 - 811
13 - 989
14 - 1207
15 - 1472
16 - 1796

Maybe 22% per month is high for a 7 to 16 month old snake and low for a 1 to 6 month snake due to older snakes not being meant to grow as fast but since we are still talking about young snakes I really think that JM and Rodmalm are on the same page feeding wise. Looking at weight gains in percentage is the way to compare rather than comparing absolute grams per month.

Another thing I have been thinking about is this.

Successful breeding is a combination of size and age. (I assume this because it seems to makes sense, and a lot of people say this, and obviously a baby snake can't breed!)

Consider these 2 hypothetical possibilities. (with both snakes weight the same at breeding)

1) A snake is born, underfed and is bred at 2 years of age. Because it is under fed, it may be underdeveloped physically, and have problems producing/laying eggs.

2) A snake is born and is overfed. It is bred at 1 year of age and it either doesn't produce eggs (because it is too young), or it does produce them. Since it is probably physically developed as well or more so than the snake in example 1, it should lay eggs just as easily.

It seems to me, it is far more dangerous for the snake to be underfed/underdeveloped and then bred at a later age than to be bred earlier in life. Is it correct to assume that age is more relevant to development than size? If a snake can't physically produce eggs because of its age, what's the harm in breeding it? If it is physically able to produce eggs at that early age, what's the harm in breeding it?

Yes, this is a very interesting subject. Another good question would be, why do 2 snakes, that are from the same parents, kept under the same conditions, with the same feeding schedule, develop at different rates? (I suspect one has a better mix of gut flora and fauna that improves digestion efficiency.)

It's also interesting to note, that in people, weight really isn't that indicative of health. (except for extreme obesity.) I heard of a study (on a doctor's radio talk show) where overweight people, that lost weight, had poorer health than people that were overweight and didn't try to loose weight. It is believed that each person has a different ideal weight. Varying from that ideal weight is stressful, and the stress is worse for the health of the individual than the extra weight is. Another assumption (overweight people loosing weight is healthy) that doesn't appear to be correct in reality.

Rodney

If you clue a tired lady into the formula you used to come up with the percents I'll plug it into the spread sheet and make another table. I imagine I could figure out how you came up with those numbers~ But I don't really want to try~ just give the tired, half drunk lady the formula dude!

Thanks!

Not to worry~ I will continue taking the weights. I am just kind of fascinated to watch the progress and weigh EVERY snake here EVERY month. When I sold a mess of baby corns to the pet store the guy actually made fun of me for being so anal about my records. Still not sure that was funny~ ( But I did laugh. )

Here is the formula:

(New Month Weight - Last Month Weight)/Last Month Weight

It will display like 0.22 but if you set the format of that column to percent then it will change to 22%.

My percents were slightly different than yours, but I think that is because I used the entire number, not the rounded number. Thanks!

Once again, just an observation. I've only hatched one clutch of BP's so far, it was Sep. 1, 2003. I kept the 5 females. They weigh from 200 to 260 grams and are on the same feeding schedule. The 200 gram one is always out roaming in his tub, while the others spend more time coiled up in their warm hide boxes.
Paul

NP

I had not considered exersize at all. Really demonstrates how "Non-scientific" my study is doesn't it! For the most part all of the snakes listed have been in individual shoe boxes measuring approx 12"X8" (Guessing, can get exact measurment if someone wants it) until about October, when #1, #2, #9, #3, #7, #8, #14, Autumn, and Spring all moved to larger boxes (about 35"X16". I have noticed a distinct change in appetite since moving to the larger boxes. These snakes do not feed as well as they did in the smaller boxes. This may be due to Winter Fast or decreased secuirity in the larger box (or both?) I keep feed records as well, next time I have a few hours to kill maybe I will make a spread sheet comparing the feeding habits of the ones in the small tubs to those that have moved to the large tubs~ in conjunction with the availability of the excersize variable in the larger tub, and in relation to the weights of each animal.........

Hold on~ I don't have that much time! Maybe next year I'll get scientific. This year I am just enjoying my hobby, and keeping notes!