Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Perhaps my education has turned me into an eco-nazi. I should probably join PETA now and get it over with.

Anyway I just wanted to express my opinion on what seems to be the majority of hobbyist, herpers, retailers, wholesalers, etc. Most of what I have observed has been on the venomous side of the "hobby". The amount of wild collection is really unnecessary. Countless websites advertise wild caught snakes or neonates born of mothers who were captured while gravid. Habitat is scarce at best and you all know or should know the reproductive capabilities of these animals.

If you concern yourselves with conservation and I imagine you do pay the extra for captive bred snakes(I encourage all experienced keepers to breed their snakes). Would it hurt the hobby if you needed to pay more for these creatures? I think not; they are dangerous and it may make some people think twice about getting that first copperhead if it cost more than 15 bucks.

If this doesn't keep you from bagging every snake found crossing the road then atleast recycle and shoot people wearing fur.

Sounds like miseducation if you support PETA. The ONLY conservation measure that will have any sort of sizeable impact is HABITAT PROTECTION. You can "protect" all the species that you want by implimenting superficial regulations to stop field collection or prohibit keeping reptiles in captivity but in the end these token gestures won't amount to a single species benefiting in the slightest. If anyone doubts my words then name a SINGLE reptile or amphibian species that has made ANY sort of comeback as a result of these sort of misguided efforts. I am talking hard documented facts. Alligator mississippiensis is a special case and does NOT count because it is a large and conspicuous species that is quite atypical among North American reptiles.

Groups like PETA are fueled by more insideous agendas than the "ethical treatment of animals". Their slogan Sounds great right? Wrong! Do some research on these sort of groups and check their track records. PETA is so twisted that they actually celebrated people being attacked by sharks. That sort of thing is not unusual coming from a radical and dangerous group like PETA.

If you think that PETA has a shred of logic behind their actions then go to this link and be cured of such nonsense.

"your Mommy Kills Animals" is a comic strip targeted to CHILDREN by PETA http://www.peta.org/

PETA would take all of our rights to even eat meat or drink milk. Don't believe me? Research it for yourself. The FACT of the matter is that humans are OMNIVOROUS. This means that our bodies are designed to eat both plant AND animal matter. It is extremely difficult and UNNATURAL for humans to survive on a diet of plant matter alone. There is not a single plant that contains all of the essential amino acids that humans require for life.

Perhaps you didn't pick up the sarcasm. I in no way endorse any of PETA's ideas or methods.

Also I understand that habitat preservation is without a doubt the most important way to protect our herps. They don't live in Wal-Mart. Have you read Degenerated Science by Dean Ripa on his website www.bushmastersonline.com (I believe it is available for purchase as well. It is full of information about the backwards herp conservation laws and downplays the effect of collectors, which is most likely minimal.

This being said I still believe the effects of collection for the pet trade (and not so much the trade; people just take them and keep them for themselves and this is hard to quantify, I know herpers who keep every snake they find, despite low fecundity, rarity, etc.)should be studied further. I've only collected one snake from the wild ever and will not repeat the act, with a possible exception for a "rescue".

I appreciate the link and insight I will show it to my misinformed "animal-loving" friends.

I do agree that over collection is detrimental. I have not kept a wild caught specimen in my collection for over a decade because I don't believe in taking specimens from the wild that are readily available as captive bred. However, I would (and probably soon will)keep wild caught specimens to add new genetic material to my breeding stock or in the case of species that are not bred in captivity I would definitely acquire a group of wild caught breeders for captive propagation. This ultimately leads to healthy captive bred animals being available to the public and takes some pressure (however small) off of wild populations.

I also agree that fewer animals, higher quality and higher price tags would be a good thing.

Actually fewer higher priced animals has a detrimental effect on wild populations as it encourages local collection by those who don't want to pay higher prices or want to profit off the increased value (case in point; Indigos).....If I had a nickle for every w/c snake I have seen that was offered as captive born.... The one issue that is being skirted here is that in some of these animals native lands the people make a living off catching and selling them. If they don't sell them then the people just kill them for food. In other places they are just being wiped out to make room for condos or for farming etc....This is not an easy problem to solve.....
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I wasn't even really thinking of exotic snakes, but you make a good point(real similar to collecting for the marine fish trade).

I would argue that most native snakes especially venomous are not really desirable enough that many people would go collect to avoid higher prices(time, money, and effort). Snakes that are highly thought of like eastern diamondbacks, ridgenose rattlers etc. may create that type of situation. Although, you just can't compare w/c to captive bred. My eastern diamondbacks were captive bred by a reputable breeder in south Georgia, and I couldn't be happier with their quality, disposition, and appetites.

Thanks for the insight and new ideas, I always love talking herps with fellow enthusiasts.

One thing you do need to consider. Some of the more desirable native snakes are not bred, or if they are, not yet in sufficient quantities to satisfy demand. My Regal Ringneck is a very desirable native that is only (at this time) available w/c.

Strangely, one of the rarest snakes in the USA, The South Florida Mole King (less than 40 known from the wild) is captive bred and there is little demand for it. I know of only two people who breed this and both don't sell a lot of them. Yet I know a number of herpers who dream of catching a Okeetee(I apologise for mispelling, but I'm not near my books)Red Rat though it is quite commonly available (and cheap!) c/b.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

http://www.globalherp.com/id35.htm

If you go over to the HERP LAW/CITIES forum you will find a link in the Peta thread that will supply more info about PETA and other (so-called) conservation groups.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."