Reptile & Amphibian Forums

From PetGuys.com

Zoo Med Repti Sand is an all natural substrate for desert dwelling reptiles. It stimulates natural digging and burrowing behavior and is an excellent egg-laying medium for many reptiles. Natural colored, pure Quartz desert sand has no added dyes or chemicals. Excellent for Bearded Dragons, Leopard Geckos, Soft-shelled Turtles, Tarantulas & Scorpions, Desert Iguanas, etc. Shipping weight: 5 1/4 lbs.

From petsmart.com

ZooMed Repti Sand
Pure, very fine quartz desert sand is the ideal substrate for a variety of desert dwelling reptiles including Bearded Dragons, Leopard Geckos, Sand Boas and more. Stimulates natural digging and burrowing behavior; also an excellent egg-laying medium for many reptiles.

Quartz sand is SiO2 or Silicone Dioxide which is also known as Silica sand. Don't believe me here is a link to a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) of a play sand maker.

consumer.kpmindustries.com/documents/MSDS/KING Play Sand.pdf

Dude you need to come down off your high horse and stop looking down your nose at people around here. Believe it or not some of us do know what the f we are talking about. I know you know everything though and we are all morons. Dude relax yourself if you disagree with someone provide proof to back up your story it is that simple. Above is proof that this natural ZOO MED sand is actually silica based. The danger of silica is the dust from it. It causes respiratory problems for dragons. This is why they screen and wash play sand to remove oversized particles and also the dust. From the moment you started to post on this forum I and several others have felt that you were the new know it all, and thought you were so much better than all us. You write very degrading posts about trying to educate us but provide us with no proof. Turns out that wendy was right and you were wrong. Think you should go apologize and lick your wounds. Also think that you were wrong on the UVA thing. And going a while back you mentioned how you were trying to help us out by teaching us what UVB does, but didn't want it to get too technical. Believe it or not everyone that owns a reptile is not an uneducated idiot. I for one am not. I have a BS and MS in Mechanical engineering and am within 2 years of having my PhD in Biomedical engineering. So I do know a thing or two and also know that when I make a statement I need to be able to back it up with proof. Something you do not seem to understand. You just say this and that and provide no proof.

Oh and moderators go ahead and yank it i don't give a poop and I don't polute.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

It is the dust here is a quote

Play-sand : Off white in color our sand is of the highest quality naturally mined beach sand, which has been double washed using no chemicals to remove the silica dust . picture $25.00 per ton note this is not concrete sand or white mortar sand. warning some mortar and concrete sands have not been washed , for more info. understanding the hazards of silica dust
from http://www.areamulchandsoils.com/playground_mulches.htm near the bottom.

Here is a link to the osha report from the mor info and understanding the hazards of silica dust.

www.areamulchandsoils.com/playsandpict.html

So you see my friend 10 minutes of research can teach everyone something. Silica dust is bad, silica sand that has been washed doesn't have dangerous particles of silica dust in it therefor it is safe. And the great all natural ZOO MED sand is silica based. Oh my not another shady marketing ploy by a reptile products company that is never the case. That all natural ZOO MED crap is the same thing as beach sand but it is naturally colored. Now go ahead and show me how smart you are and how dumb I am.

I don't give a poop because I don't polute
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

The origin of the sand
At the time of the last ice age, the sea water level stood some 120m lower than today, fringing the edge of the continental shelf. There were beaches over there, and dunes. The sand locked up in these is radio-carbon dated to about 9,000 years old, which we will refer to as modern or Holocene sand. As the ice age ended some 6000 years ago, and the sea level rose, the beaches and dunes moved with it. By the action of waves, nearly all the sea sand within a certain size range, was swept towards the land. By about 4000 years ago, the process had ended, and the beaches and dunes were essentially where they are found today.

Note that the main component of sand is silica (silicon dioxide, SiO2) an extremely hard and slow-wearing substance, which may have originated from soil or volcanic eruptions a million years ago. Since no carbon is found inside silica, it cannot be carbon-dated. In between the sand grains, one also finds shell (calcium carbonate, CaCO3) and organic matter, which can be carbon-dated.

The latest additions to the pool of sand come from present-day rivers, but before it becomes a play ball of the water, sand is formed from rock by weathering under a layer of soil and vegetation. Although sand grains are found in sand stone and consolidated beach sand, they are not part of the earth's crust or of metamorphosed rock, nor even of mud stone. During the weathering process, the chemical composition of rock is changed, and in the process, sand is formed from dissolved silicates. Other products formed are clay and silt. Together they form the many kinds of loam. From the loams, under influence of vegetation, soils are formed.
It takes many thousands of years for rock to turn into sub soil, then top soil, then being washed into rivers, and finally ending up in the sea.

From:

Mining the Sea

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www.reptilerooms.com

but seriously... thank goodness for you Cheri. A wealth of information and so willing to share.

God I love this woman
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

A little research goes a long way. She is great though.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Seriously, most answers can be found with a few mintues on search engines and looking at several sources.

They are certain ones I look for over any other..... anything on reptiles by Douglas Mader, Elliott Jacobson, Roger Klingenberg to name a few. These men have dedicated their lives to reptile health and welfare and are on the leading edge on new information WITHOUT a personal agenda for reports.

Then there are specialty fields too that I always turn to: Just put their names in search engine and the field

Susan Donoghue for Reptile Nutrition
Juergen Schumacher for Reptile Virus (along with Jacobson)
Jean Pare for Fungus
Donald Janssen for Radiology
Richard Wells for Taxonomy
Avery Bennett for Neurology
Michael Murray, Reptile heart or Lungs

Maders "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" is my reptile bible

All of these people are really good about answering email or phone questions...... If I have an unanswered question.... the first place I call is the the University of Florida, College of Vet Med, one of the best group of knowledgable vets/researchers and specialist in the country for reptiles. And always willing to listen and direct or jump on a suggestion. Above all, they care... it's not just a job to them, they love their work and the animals and they do not have attitudes because they know so much, they are ALWAYS willing to listen to a new idea and pick apart or verify an idea with merit.
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www.reptilerooms.com

from a post of yours

Per The Bearded Dragon Manual: "Avoid unscreened/unwashed sands,particularily unprocessed silica sands because of health risks from inhaling dust lifted by the dragons digging."

exactly unwashed is bad because of the dust.

"Sand is the most easy to clean and maintain substrate."

except for those nasty parasites that will infect you dragons as they have some parasited in his gi tract

"We do not recommend any of the calcium infused sands. A dragon should get all of its nutrients, vitamins and minerals from its food sources not from eating the ground they walk on or ingesting the sand. We do not tell our kids to eat dirt to get their vitamins so why would you expect a calci-sand to provide your dragons with their calcium. "

Sand is not infused with calcium, it is made up of calcium carbonate (lime stone) rather than quartz. It is not marketed to be a source of calcium but rather as being digestable because it is made of calcium.

"We use washed/sceened NON SILICA based play sand as well as Zoo Med brand Repti-Sand."

Reptisand is silica based

"Had to put my foot down on all this arguing over sand vs. this or that as a substrate and get THE CORRECT information on record"

Don't you first have to find the correct info brother?

"Incandescent bulbs from the hardware store (household bulbs) offer nothing but heat. They do not offer your dragon any UVA or UVB output."

Are you sure about the UVA? Where is your proof?

"you must use another source to provide UVA and UVB"

Are you sure, lots of big breeders don't think so. Lots of people on here don't think you need to but that it is beneficial. Again any proof besides reptiles article by ZooMed?

"The Reptile Basking light bulbs that you buy in a pet store ARE different than what you buy in a hardware store or use as a househld bulb. The design of the reptile basking bulbs have double reflector design that focuses 35% more light and heat than regular incandescent bulbs."

Again are you sure about this? Do you have any proof?

"You want to stay away from silica based sand. Some play sands are silica based so you have to check the package. We use playsand that we screen and wash well before using as well as a great sand made by Zoo Med"

Again just plain wrong.

"I am doing you a favor spending my time educating you if you choose to insult me by saying I must be thinking of silicone breast implants then I won't waste my valuable time trying share my knowledge and share information."

We have no problem with you educating us and sharing experience as lon as you are right and have proof, that is all.

Guess that is enough you should get the point you look down on us and crap on us like we know nothing. When you run around spreading lots of misinformation. Don't throw rocks if you live in a glass house.

I don't give a poop and I do not pollute.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Just that washed playsand is silica based as is the reptisand. You might as well save money on the sand you buy. And you might want to put that saved money away to treat the health problems associated with sand. If you want to know my true views scroll down to the "great substrate debate" thread. At the end I add my two cents. Oh and I guess this thread may be interputted as a personal attack on georgia bearded dragons, I just hate to be talked down to. Especially by a missinformed person it irritates me.

I don't give a poop because I don't pollute.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

First of all, let me point out that this is why it's called "The Great Substrate Debate". Opinions always vary.
Secondly, I happen to know that SHE is not your brother!
This shows what a great expert you are.

You don't give a poop & you don't pollute? Must mean that you're full of it!

Cricket

Sorry man for the brother comment. I guess I assumed something and it wasn't correct. And I can't poop because I ate too much of the ReptiSand. It caused a blockage.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

You're funny.
Cricket

And your counter points are weak at best.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

And you need an enema.
Cricket

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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Opinions do vary I agree. And you have to respect others opinion. If you sit there looking down your nose at people and tell them they are wrong when you are in fact wrong is not acceptable. I posted this at about 4 o'clock. Yeah notice how no one has responded. That is a pretty good indication that no one disagrees with me. If people thought I was being unfair or was wrong in my statements someone would have jumped on board. I respect others opinions and knowledge, however opinions are not facts. Facts need things to back them up. I hate the spread of wrong information and your friend was doing just that. Then insulting people that corrected her. I don't care what people think of sand as a substrate, however in no way is it the safest substrate. Period no opinion there the safest thing is nothing or paper. And also there is no way that Zoo Med sand is not silica based. It is silica based and that is a fact. I guess you didn't get the last sentence, it must of went over your head.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Personally, I have always used sand on my ADULTS. Maybe it's not the best choice, but each & every one of us have our own way of doing things. And what works best for me is just that-best for me. It's really no different than the debate over UVB or the choice to have cricket-free beardies. That's what these forums are for, to give us all an opportunity to voice our own personal opinions & experiences. And maybe some of the things that have been written here are not entirely true, more opinion than fact, but I can tell you that most people who post in these forums are really trying to help others. No one is out to deliberately get you to impact your dragons. Substrate is solely the choice of the owner, whether it be a right choice or not. End of debate. Have a good night. I'm going to bed.
Cricket

and there is no need to get offended and talk down to others when they contradict you.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

What you choose to use as substrate is totally an individual choice. Scientific facts, however, are not debatable. Unless ofcourse, there are certain states where the laws of physics cease to exhist.
As a breeder, I feel it is important to know the facts about the products I use/promote so I know that I am using the best, also so I can explain to my customers why they should use it as well. If you can't explain it, it is assumed you don't know it and if you don't konw it, how can you pass on correct information?

Wendy
Scales - Premium Exotic Reptiles

"The Reptile Basking light bulbs that you buy in a pet store ARE different than what you buy in a hardware store or use as a househld bulb. The design of the reptile basking bulbs have double reflector design that focuses 35% more light and heat than regular incandescent bulbs."

Who gives a rats A$$ as long as the temp is correct????...

Glad you jumped in Grimdog, I'm just too busy and too tired to deal w/all that crap.
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www.classylizard.com

That's my favorite one too. Lets spend $8 on a special bulb at the petstore when I can buy 8 bulbs at the hardware store for the same price that acomplish the same damn thing...

I agree with you guys here. Opinions are fine, but don't push them as fact when they aren't. And don't be so damn condescending to everybody. We do not need you to EDUCATE us on your opinions.

Especially when the opinions are dead wrong and unfactual.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Us simpletons that been here a few yerz and done owned them thar dragoned type lizerds are just a bunch of bumpkins and need learnin and edgukatin..
I'm serprized our lizerds hain't baut the farm afor this.
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www.classylizard.com

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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

n/p
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www.classylizard.com

n/p
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Joel R

Coming Soon!
www.SpikesAndScales.com

I am glad someone said something. I hate people talking to me like I am stupid. I have alot to learn that is why I hand around the forum, but I also do have some insights to share and am not a COMPLETE moron. Only a partial one !!
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Stacey