Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yesterday I placed my little Eastern male into a 10gal with a zoo med uth. One of my Western Females was in here until I cooled her down yesterday so I cleaned it real well and put the little guy in there.
At 6:30 am this morning I noticed he was jerking and hissing and hooded up. This did not alarm me at all because he is a nasty little dude with a bad attitude and I thought he was just acting up. For those of you who may remember he bit my girlfriend last month out of the blue.
Anyhow, when I got home from work tonight at 7:30pm (yes I work long hours) he was near the water bowl convulsing. He would open and close his mouth and sometimes turn upside down while doing small little jerking actions. These movements seem un-purposeful and involuntary (this morning they looked voluntary but I only saw it for a split second before rushing out the door). I quickly pulled him out and put him in a deli cup. The hot side of the tank appeared to be really hot but the snake was on the opposite side which was very cool, maybe 65 degrees. Now this little guy is twisting upside down and looks like he's having some agonal respirations, with quick involuntary twitches. It does not seem responsive to touch and doesn't have normal reflexes. If I had to guess I would say it looks like he has a 90% chance of dying.

How could this have happened?

I'll keep you updated.

Rudy
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1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (new)
0.1 Rubber Boa
1.0 Eastern Hognose 2003 super red
0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
1.1 Womas
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata

1 Pleco
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.

Only time I saw this happen was when we got an eastern in at the wildlife shelter I volunteer at. The snake was convulsing and hissing and thrashing around. Looked almost neurological as there were no outward wounds (though there could have been internal problems I suppose). He settled down but died fairly soon after. Could there have been any foreign substances in the tank that could have affected him? Any sort of residues or oil? Good luck with it man...Andy(BTW surf is up tomorrow, but I am going to be left HIGH AND DRY)
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

>>Yesterday I placed my little Eastern male into a 10gal with a zoo med uth. One of my Western Females was in here until I cooled her down yesterday so I cleaned it real well and put the little guy in there.
>>At 6:30 am this morning I noticed he was jerking and hissing and hooded up. This did not alarm me at all because he is a nasty little dude with a bad attitude and I thought he was just acting up. For those of you who may remember he bit my girlfriend last month out of the blue.
>>Anyhow, when I got home from work tonight at 7:30pm (yes I work long hours) he was near the water bowl convulsing. He would open and close his mouth and sometimes turn upside down while doing small little jerking actions. These movements seem un-purposeful and involuntary (this morning they looked voluntary but I only saw it for a split second before rushing out the door). I quickly pulled him out and put him in a deli cup. The hot side of the tank appeared to be really hot but the snake was on the opposite side which was very cool, maybe 65 degrees. Now this little guy is twisting upside down and looks like he's having some agonal respirations, with quick involuntary twitches. It does not seem responsive to touch and doesn't have normal reflexes. If I had to guess I would say it looks like he has a 90% chance of dying.
>>
>>How could this have happened?
>>
>>I'll keep you updated.
>>
>>Rudy
>>-----
>>1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (new)
>>0.1 Rubber Boa
>>1.0 Eastern Hognose 2003 super red
>>0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
>>4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
>>1.1 Womas
>> Spadefoot
>> Black Knobbed Sawback
>> Northern Diamondback
>> Florida Redbellied Slider
>> Western Painted
>> Southern Painted
>>1.0 African Hedgehog
>>1.0 Sulcata
>>
>>1 Pleco
>>2 Silver Dollars
>>3 Bosemian Rainbows
>>1 Cory Cat
>>1 Upside Down Catfish
>>2.0 Fire Guramis
>>
>>uhh... I think that is it.
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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

np

Did you have the UTH plugged in through a thermostat or rheostat? Those units are NOT supposed to be plugged straight into the wall. If that is the case, who knows, it could have cooked the snake. Just because there is a cool side available doesn't mean the snake "knows" to go there when it is under thermal stress. I had a lady give me a corn snake that was regurgitating all of its meals. She plugged a UTH straight into the wall. I took it and haven't had a problem with it for 3 yrs.

What is the update as of now? Have you taken it to the vet???
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

I think a vet would be the best thing to do as I've seen so many causes for this type of behavior in a wide variety snakes species. Cleaners, insecticides, heat, parasites, injuries, and sometimes the snake has a pre-exisiting neurological problem that you could not even be aware of until it shows.

I hope the little guy will be okay.

Well the poor guy is dead. It just makes me sick to my stomach. This little guy was one of those never-seen-before-until-this-year-super red Easterns.A true gem.
I've been herping and keeping snakes for over 20 years and this is the second snake that has ever died in my custody. Interestingly enough, both were male Eastern Hognoses, both were the same age, and this is actually a year apart exactly.
To answer a few questions:
I cleaned the cage with water and then got the spots out with Windex. I believe windex is mostly alcohol and evaporates completely. I may be wrong.
I sprayed the new substrate with Provent-A-Mite like I do every time. This is not new either and is safe as far as I know just as long as you let it dry and don't put the water bowl in at once.
This particular 10 gallon did NOT have a thermostat. I actually pulled it off to run a level of my freedom breeder rack last week. I checked the temperature and it held about 80 degrees so I thought it was safe. Truthfully, I do not run a temp controller on my kenyan sand boa terrarium because they like the high heat anyway since they are from the desert ( do you think I should???)
So that leads to quite a few possibilites that hopefully you guys can help me with...
1) Cleaning solution
2) Insecticide
3) Over heating to death
4) Some weird neurological disorder (maybe parasitic)

Though the extra hot heat pad may be a high possibility I never witnessed the snake on that side (but I was at work for 13hrs).
Hopefully a snake would be instinctive enough to move from the hot side to the 65 degree cool side (where I found him), and not burn to death.

The possibility that I am leaning more towards is that he had some sort of neuro problem or parasite that caused neuro problems. For all it's worth I'll let you know that though I may not be a herp expert, I am a registered nurse and I have worked the Intensive Care Unit for the last 7 years and hopefully I have some sort of deductive reasoning may help in this matter. First off the snake always seemed to have an attitude problem. If you remember a month ago (you can probably scroll down this forum and find it) I posted that the little Eastern Hognose bit my girlfriend on the finger the first day I recieved it. People asked many questions about that weather or not the snake was hurt or did she have toad or mouse scent on her fingers or any scent. The answer was no, He just bit her. Also this little guy was always pissy. 90% of the time when I was in the room he remained hooded up, hissing and pissed. I've never seen a hog that irritable. Also the dying syptoms looked very neurologic since it was convulsing (I guess maybe that is what a dying snake looks like anyway).

Well whatever the case I do not know. The snake was purchased from a very reputable breeder that I trust very much and have had satisfaction from. Only thing is this snake was from a clutch purchased outside of his stock when he expanded.

Whatever input ANYONE can give will be greatly appreciated. The loss of this snake is a terrible thing, it was such a beautiful specimen and it was my only male Eastern. I was sooo looking forward to see how good it would look as an adult and what the offspring might look like. That possibility is over now and it bums me out.
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1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (new)
0.1 Rubber Boa
1.0 Eastern Hognose 2003 super red
0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
1.1 Womas
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata

1 Pleco
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.

It sounds like a neurological problem due to an overdose of provent-a mite. I have seen this happen with several platyrhinos owners now. They seem to have bad reactions to this substance if it is sprayed too much. I use this on all my tanks, but I spray the substrate in a seperate container and air it out for at least 72 hours before use. The user who is on this forum is G POOP. Hopefully he can post his experience as well.
I would rule out parasites because a good parasite does not kill his host because then he would die. Also, the snake is cb and never ate a frog or toad. He only ate thawed pinks scented with thawed bufo. I have 6 littermates of the hog that died, and all are doing well at the moment
What you described sounded like experiences other herpers have shared regarding bleach overdoses. The lil guys just can't take it. I clean all of my tanks out with dishwashing liquid and only spray the outside with windex.

Well darn it if that is true than that sucks.
You use the product according to the directions and it kills your prized snake. Something is not right about that. Making Provent a Mite liable would be rediculously hard because I would have to get an autopsy to determine cause of death and so on.

Looks like my loss and my loss only.
What a disappointment.
-----
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (new)
0.1 Rubber Boa
1.0 Eastern Hognose 2003 super red
0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
1.1 Womas
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata

1 Pleco
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.

what explains his out of the box agitation?
-----
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (new)
0.1 Rubber Boa
1.0 Eastern Hognose 2003 super red
0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
1.1 Womas
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata

1 Pleco
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.

>>what explains his out of the box agitation?
>>-----
>>1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (new)
>>0.1 Rubber Boa
>>1.0 Eastern Hognose 2003 super red
>>0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
>>4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
>>1.1 Womas
>> Spadefoot
>> Black Knobbed Sawback
>> Northern Diamondback
>> Florida Redbellied Slider
>> Western Painted
>> Southern Painted
>>1.0 African Hedgehog
>>1.0 Sulcata
>>
>>1 Pleco
>>2 Silver Dollars
>>3 Bosemian Rainbows
>>1 Cory Cat
>>1 Upside Down Catfish
>>2.0 Fire Guramis
>>
>>uhh... I think that is it.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Most babies are very pi$$y from the start. They generally calm down with handling and hand feeding after about a year...maybe less. However, I do have 2 cb adults that I have raised from babies that are still hooding and getting huffy puffy when they see me across the room. They're actually both males as well!

"I would rule out parasites because a good parasite does not kill his host because then he would die."

What about roundworms, hookworms, lungworms, amebiasis, coccidia, and crytosporidiosis all of which, according to my Understanding Reptile Parasites book, can cause death secondarily and have the potential to cause death primarily? I agree that the chance of parasites causing the problem is low for this snake. Although I am relatively new to the world of parasites, the general statement above is not accurate. In fact, a study in 1972 revealed that 79% of reptile deaths were the result of parasitic infestations.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

That's a good statistic, but we are far more advanced in herpetoculture now than 5 years, much less 31 years ago!

I believe most deaths of wc snakes in captivity have to do with parasites if not treated. However, I believe that the parasites only become a factor when improper husbandry practices are taking place. The animals do fine in the wild. Maybe stress from captivity, maybe even providing an inadequate hide...these all can contribute imho. This makes the snake weaker and more vulnerable to the parasites.

>>That's a good statistic, but we are far more advanced in herpetoculture now than 5 years, much less 31 years ago!
>>
>>I believe most deaths of wc snakes in captivity have to do with parasites if not treated. However, I believe that the parasites only become a factor when improper husbandry practices are taking place. The animals do fine in the wild. Maybe stress from captivity, maybe even providing an inadequate hide...these all can contribute imho. This makes the snake weaker and more vulnerable to the parasites.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Does Provent-a-mite-possibly build up in the animals system?

Just curious on this one.

L

Its the Provent a Mite, I personally first encountered this problem about 8 years ago..... followed the instructions exactly as described.
2 Days later, I had 12 western hogs that were convulsing, twisting, and "coughing" up blood.
They ALL died. At first I couldnt figure out what the heck it was as I had all of those hogs for 6 months plus. I did the provent a mite as a preventative measure...whenever bringing in new animals into the collection.
If my memory serves me right...I had just picked up a trio of cornsnakes and used the provent a mite on all of my snakes the same day I brought the corns home in case they were carrying mites I might've missed.
Anyways...long story short, after I lost all of those Hogs initially and without any kind of explanation, I shyed away from hogs for almost 3 years before I got the nerve up to try them again.....and guess what? no more then 2 days after getting a new juvie pair home and treated with provent a mite...my new pair was convulsing, twisting, and coughing up blood. They also died.
The safest way I have found to use provent a mite with hogs is to spray a paper towel with it, let it dry, and place the paper towel under the bedding.

.