Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for ZooMed
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

an inquiry about "Super" Salmons

gray Dec 22, 2003 08:16 AM

This post is an effort to eradicate some of my ignorance regarding Super Salmon boas (or any Super hypo for that matter). I currently have 3.5 animals that are carriers of the Salmon trait. Of these animals, 1.4 are “possible supers”. My oldest Salmon boa dates to 2002 so I have never bred animals with this trait. So lets get down to business…..

Here is what I think I know (prior to you telling me that I am very mistaken) about the genetics involved:

Salmon x Normal = approx. 50% of offspring will be Salmon (carry and express hypomelanism) and 50% normal

Salmon x Salmon = approx. 75% Salmon and 25% of the offspring will be “Super” or have the ability to pass the trait to 100% of the offspring in subsequent generations

Super Salmon x Normal = 100% Salmon, 0% normal, 0% Super Salmon

Super Salmon x Salmon = 50% Salmon, 50% Super Salmon

Super Salmon x Super Salmon = 100% Super Salmons

Here is my main question:
Can we identify a “Super” prior to proving it by its offspring?

Obviously, the most certain way to “prove” a Super is by raising the animal and observing for 100% hypomelanism in any offspring that it produces. I wonder if there are definitive visual cues that can be used to identify these animals. I especially wonder about the degree of black tail banding. In Salmons and other hypos (including Hogg Island), the last 4 or 5 tail saddles are always banded in black while the others have no black border. In my possible Super Salmons, the tails range from absolutely zero black banding up to the 4-5 black banded saddles that you would expect for a “regular” Salmon. Some have banding that appears faint and grey rather than black. Have any Salmons WITHOUT black tail banding been bred and shown NOT to be Supers? I also wonder about eye color. The possible Supers show a lot of orange and red eye color.

Thanks for taking the time to consider my question.

I hope everyone will have the opportunity to spend time with their loved ones (including their boas) this Holiday season. I also hope that we all find ourselves in a mood to be thankful.
gray
Image

Replies (7)

East TN Reptile Dec 22, 2003 08:28 AM

Got him from Jon Nygen.........couldn't be more happier with him. Thanks Jon ! Your thoughts ?
Dave @ East TN Reptiles

Rainshadow Dec 22, 2003 08:43 AM

Of your questions,however,all of your formulas are correct,except the "salmon X salmon"co-dom X co-dom) this results in 50% co-doms,25% dominants,AND,25% "normals",or,individuals without the salmon expression...AFAIK,the only way of absolute ID in regards to dominant "hypos" is by breeding two proven dominant animals to each other...as you stated above,this results in an entire litter of dominants without doubt. I don't think eye color,or,presence of black tail-banding,are 100% absolute,they are merely indicators of the higher probability that the animal in question,may be dominant...talking directly to Rich may provide better insight into things he's noticed,or,found to be somewhat consistant?...(and,I return the Holiday wishes,right back at you! hope you have the greatest!)good post,BTW.

Rainshadow Dec 22, 2003 08:54 AM

"Crying face" represents a severe caffine deficiency!(mine!) it's dominant too!!!

gmherps Dec 22, 2003 12:58 PM

Those are some very nice Hypos guys!!
Happy Holidays to All!
-----
Greg Holland
G&M HERPS
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

gray Dec 22, 2003 02:00 PM

...yes, I didn't check over my work very well. Thanks for the correction on the Salmon x Salmon. Although I am hopeful that there is visual "proof" of dominance in hypos, I was expecting the kind of answer you gave - looks can narrow the field but not give you a definitive answer.

Brian Oakley Dec 22, 2003 09:50 PM

I think the Salmon/Hypo gene is much like the Pastel gene in ball pythons. You breed a pastel to a normal you get 50-50......or should come close.
The tough part is understanding how/why you do not always get a super pastel when you breed the two together.
As far as identifying them ahead of time, I have no clue. Alot of people go on whether there is any black below the vent. I have had F-1's (hypo x normal breeding) that come out like that so I would think not.
Just some thoughts.
Brian Oakley
-----
Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

gray Dec 23, 2003 07:24 AM

....I will have to take a look at a "pastel" ball python. I have never been that interested in the pythons but I am always interested in genetic anomolies. A Super Pastel? Sure sounds nice. gray

Site Tools