Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I, myself, have a growing ball python (female) and a speckled kingsnake that was wild caught (not by me) in boeumont, tx (also female).

My future mother-in-law recently purchase a kingsnake as well. I'm unsure of it's unique name, but it's got white & black bands running the length of it's entire body. It's really quite a beautiful snake that I don't think I'll ever convince the inlaw to release to me.

Now, on to my question.

I've been feeding live adult mice to my ball python and live fuzzy's to my speckled kingsnake due to their respective sizes and requirements.

I'm extremely curious if there is some benefit for the snake to have either frozen or live? At ALL costs, I'd rather do what's BEST for my snakes. I KNOW that snakes in the wild would naturally catch and eat live prey. But I was wondering if there were any health or physical benefits to feeding frozen mice.

Any answer would be greatly appreciated.

I'm also into the bonsai tree's. And while I haven't yet gotten around to posting pictures of the snakes in the family, there's a picture of my only tree on my website

http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/all2ez/

I have been feeding my 2 corns, 1 milk and 1 jungle carpet python frozen/thawed pinkies, fuzzies and adult mice. I know the BIGGEST advantage of feeding F/T is the snake won't become the 'meal' if the meal isn't eaten, esp. if it's a rat. (Some day my python will be big enough for rats). I've heard about snakes that have gotten injured because they didn't eat their meal and it was left in their enclosure only to eat the snake.

I don't think there is much difference in nutritionally feeding frozen over live. Some say frozen kills off any bacteria or what ever on the prey.

Personally I don't like to toss in a live mouse to be chased around for my own amusment. In the wild both snake and prey have a fighting chance to get away from each other if need be but not when they are in a box together...one will come out as the winner and sometimes it's the prey.

This has been covered many times in the past in this forum. If you use the search function, you can probably find several threads with more discussion, but here's a quick rundown:

Benefits of feeding frozen/thawed:

1. No chance of the mouse or rat turning on the snake and causing injury. Rats and mice have been known to kill snakes if the snake doesn't eat them right away and they are left unattended.

2. Parasites are killed by freezing for at least 3 weeks. Mice and rats can carry parasites that are transmissible to reptiles.

3. Less chance for zoonose. Rats and mice are also capable of carrying parasites and diseases that are transmissible to humans.

4. Frozen rats and mice are easier to store, and you don't have to feed them or clean up after them.

5. Frozen rats and mice are more economical. You can buy them in bulk and keep them in your freezer and save a ton of money. The mouse you pay $1.98 for at the pet store will cost you about 40 cents or so frozen in bulk. You do have to pay shipping, but there is still asubstantial savings.

Benefits of feeding live:

I can't think of any.

Most snakes will take frozen/thawed prey items with very little, if any, difficulty. Occasionally you will have a stubborn one that has been fed live for a long period of time and doesn't want to change over and sometimes babies are a little difficult to switch over. I haven't seen more than one or two that absolutely would not switch to dead prey.

Good advice as always OH.

Hope you and yours are safe and warm.

Hope mating went well for you with the large black ones. I am scared to try it for at least one more year or so. My female means too much to me, I don’t want to lose her. You know what I mean.

Have a merry one and a Happy New Year……Dann

Hi Dann!

I hope your Holidays are going well, also. So far mine has been very enjoyable.

Yep, the rubidus have mated a total of 7 times so far, the longest coupling being about 12 hours or so. Hopefully it will result in a pile of little ones. I'll let you know. If I could just get my hands on an adult female erebennus in the next couple of weeks, I'd have a pretty full Drymarchon breeding season....oh, well...in another couple of years my little Alessandrini female will be ready. Then "Chainsaw" won't have to be frustrated smelling all those cycling females and never having one in his cage. Then maybe he'll calm down and I can rename him to some less dangerous power tool.

Keep in touch.

Frozen/thawed by all means. The only reasons I can think of for feeding live are:
1)Snake won't eat anything else - this is addressed in oldherpers post above
2)You enjoy the "thrill" of watching the hunt/kill

The second reason leads me to the rule I hope you're already familiar with - NEVER put a mouse or rat into the snake's cage and leave them unattended.

By the way, the black/white banded snake sounds like a California Kingsnake.

Good Luck !!

it is a very lengthy thread about snake being bit and feeding F/T or live. You be the judge.

I personally only feed F/T!

The king snake your future in-law has sounds like a california king. Do a search for it and Ill bet you will find it.
The coastal phase are dark brown/yellow, while the desert phase are black/white.

Snake bit by prey

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Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

The one real benefit from feeding live, is that it gives you a chance to observe your snakes behavior. This is very important because it can indicate if your snake has or is developing a health problem.

While I would prefer feeding frozen, certain of my herps will not tollerate my presence while feeding and will not touch prey unless stimulated by it's movement, which makes some live feeding necessary.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I'm new to snakes and have wobbled quite a bit on the issue of F/T. My seven month old bullsnake is a real treasure to me and the last thing I would want to do would be to intentionally put her in harms way. That being said I can honestly say she seems much happier eating live mice. Yes she will eat F/T if left alone for an hour or so with it, but the stalking behavior and predatory instincts are completely left unused. Simply put she is a killer and was created to be one and I honestly feel like taking that from her is taking a part of "snakeness". I may go back to F/T when she reaches the size to take rats, or I may give several smaller live items. For me though I really got into this hobby to connect with and try to understand better this lifeform and part of this lifeform is a "killer" instinct. I really do hope she is never hurt, but for now I'll take the chance and let her "enjoy" her meals.
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Ron

"What we do is but a shadow of what we want to do..." Peter Weiss

Once you leave a snake on live mice for a sustained period, the chances of them taking frozen/thawed wanes significantly. By the time she is large enough to take rats, she might never want to take f/t. And saying that it is justification because the snake seems "happier" is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Because the snake is out of nature, natural things don't apply to it, such as being a predator and having to stalk prey. Infact, even to refute the idea that they stalk prey, they eat roadkill. And by the same logic, they should feed tigers live deer in the zoo and cats should only be fed a diet of live mice and birds and small animals. Andy
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I'm sorry if you took my personal choice for a "you should" argument. Simply put: TO ME and my family, our snake SEEMS happier feeding on live prey. If I owned a zoo and could afford it I very well may make the choice to feed Lions on live prey. You are right, the "natural environment" argument goes out the window in captivity, but the underlying genetic code that sais "FOOD... BITE... CONSTRICT... LET DIE... EAT" seems very much still evident. When watching her eat F/T it reminds me of myself eating plain oatmeal: bored but willing to eat it to provide nourishment. I feel that for the snake I chose to bring as a captive into my families life, for now, the best I can offer is food that entices a "wild" reaction rather than a "tame" one. Others may choose differently, but I felt it important to let people know that another thought exists on the matter.
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaninless in some sense." R.A. Wilson and Robert Shea "The Eye in the Pyramid"

With most of my snakes, live food doesn't last any longer than dead. Of course I'm a bit of a wimp and feed pretty tiny live prey items. I also tease feed so everyone gets to strike and constrict for a bit of exercise. (one of my ratsnakes will catch his rats in the air, not much sport with him)
Also, a good deal of my snakes are ambush hunters and not stalkers, so they wouldn't chase their food no matter what I did.

(I never presume to tell anyone what to feed their snakes, I'ver heard people say that feeding live is never necessary and that simply isn't true. But on the other side, most of my snakes seem just as happy on dead.)
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

I honestly think that you are saying your snakes activity level is an indicator of its 'happiness' when in fact it is simple whether or not it has to use energy. No wild creature is programed to waste energy. Meaning, a snake offered a dead item isn't going to strike, wrap and constrict if it doesn't have to ......that would waste energy. No animal can 'afford' to waste that way. Yes, some snakes will hit and wrap prekilled or f/t prey. I have some snakes with feeding responses that are not detered by prey conditions. But I don't gauge my everglades rat smacking the rat out of my grip to be a 'happier' snake than my ball python that waits several hours and then comes out quietly to ingest it's dead meal.
It is somewhat like saying that my dog is active,"happy" chasing squirrels so I should let her do that instead of feeding kibble in a bowl....since she is relatively less active for that. (she is a border collie....so NOTHING is calm).
Another thought might be that that snake knows full well that that rodent is 'trapped' with it and it had better get it before it gets bitten. Once prey is in their mouth they eat it.....instinct.(and why tease feeding works)
Justifying feeding live with anthropomorphising like that seems to me an unnecessary risk of my animals health. I have seen other's snakes go through surgeries or die from prey bites while fed live....while the person sat right there and watched, thinking they would be fast enought to stop anything from happening. (and they weren't)
Hopefully your snake will be lucky.
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Sonya

Snakes in the wild will happily eat carrion.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

Exactly. Many different species of snake have been seen eating roadkill or prekilled items in the wild. Infact, the only reason a snake is more active when you feed it live prey is they know they have to kill it. Watch the snake after it kills the prey...it swallows the formerly live prey exactly like it devours the frozen/thawed prey.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

` The previous comments stating that snakes in the wild will eagerly eat carrion, road kill, and otherwise disabled prey are quite correct. The snakes' instinct is primarily programmed to conserve energy, then protect themselves, rather than to hunt and kill.
` In more than 40 years of being involved in herpetoculture, both breeding, and retail, I have personally seen hundreds of snakes killed, or permanently injured by live prey, both pets, and wild snakes!
` All of the Boids I have raised from babies have learned to accept pre-killed, without wasting the energy of striking, or constricting it. Sometimes, they will throw a coil around their food to hold it, while they shove it down their throat.
` If an Anaconda will behave this way, isn't it likely that most snakes could learn, too?

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So true. Have you ever noticed how larger WC snakes such as kings and rats often have huge scars on their body that don't seem to heal? With the frequency they appear on snakes, I could almost guarantee most of them come rats/mice/other rodents. And I still do not see how a snake can be judged as "happy" or not. Andy
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

` Well, happy or sad may be going a little far, but Boids definitely have moods. My Anacondas have "moods" when they are happy to be handled. They also have "moods" when they aren't, won't hold still, and only want to get back to their habitat. They don't get aggressive, but when they don't want to be handled, the are the most stubborn and persistent critters I've ever dealt with. It's hard to win an argument with a 60 pound constrictor!
` As far a wild snakes go, in my area ( northwest corner of California ), I've collected and released many Kings, and Rubber Boas, that were masses of scars, and unhealed wounds.
` Forty years ago, I watched as a giant rat was thrown in with a beautiful, tame, 10+ foot Boa c. constrictor. That rat ran straight to the Boa's head, and killed the Boa with one bite. There were half a dozen of us standing there. There was no time to stop it.
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Yep. I personally lost a Monacled Cobra like that about 20 years ago.

That being said I can honestly say she seems much happier eating live mice.

I have heard people make this claim many times over the years and I would love to know how people are measuring "happiness" in their snakes.
Snakes have a much simpler brain than the stupidest mammals, and therefore I would question whether they have enough cerebral cortex to "enjoy" anything.
Happiness is a very complex emotion that is unlikely to be present in reptiles, IMHO. They do have the ability to be in a state where there is no fear, hunger, etc., but the absence of negative emotion doesn't make them "happy".

Generally, I have found that when someone makes this statement, they are saying "I am happier when my snake eats live prey". I have no problem with that perspective.

Simply put she is a killer and was created to be one and I honestly feel like taking that from her is taking a part of "snakeness".

By this standard, so am I. Yet I have been surviving over 40 years of prekilled or f/t food! And no snake is nearly as emotionally complex a killing machine as I am!

Do you kill all of your own food? Even if you hunt and collect your own vegetables and fruits, I bet it doesn't makeup more than a percent or more of your total biomass intake. How can you go on being so unhappy?

I may go back to F/T when she reaches the size to take rats, or I may give several smaller live items.

If you watch carefully, you will see that live mice bite your snake with some frequency as they are being constricted. This can't feel good for the snake. I had a sand boa that insisted on live hopper mice for a number of years. I ended up with a snake with lots of tiny scars on the anterior part of her body. They showed up as little brown marks. I had another sibling of this female who always took F/T. She didn't have the scars.
What do you think those little mouse teeth would have done if they had caught hold of an eyeball, or bitten through one of the jaws. A terrified mouse in the process of being constricted can and will do damage.
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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

I have heard, but have not been able to confirm, that nutrients are lost in the freezing process. In other words, fresh rodents are more nutritious than F/T rodents. This in itself would not outweigh the risks to the snake of feeding live prey (pinkies should be okay to feed live, though), but if true, it would argue in favor of pre-killed over F/T. Has anyone else heard this about nutritional benefits of fresh prey (live or pre-killed)?
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MichaelB

I would like to see some valid research data that shows that there is any appreciable loss of nutrients from freezing food. I don't think it exists. If that were true, then wouldn't that mean that most of what you eat is lacking nutrients? Even if there were some tiny amount of nutrient loss, the benefits of frozen/thawed far outweighs that anyway.

I too would like to see the evidence. Next chance I get, I'll ask the individual for the source of their claim (I heard it from a co-owner of a local pet shop that specializes in herps.)
I agree that the danger of feeding live prey far outweighs any possible nutritional benefit, but if there is in fact such a benefit, would not fresh-killed be preferable over f/t?

Actually, I believe there is some reliable evidence out there to suggest that at least some of what we eat loses some of its nutritional potency through freezing. Protein, fiber, calcium, various vitamin contents, are listed as less in some frozen vegetables than equivalent raw servings of the same veggies. Not so sure about meats, though. If I can come up with any references, I'll post them here.
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MichaelB

` Well, that could be. There may be a slight, or even a profound difference in nutrients, between frozen and live. It doesn't seem to affect their health, in the long run, though. I've been feeding frozen rodents for a long time, and I have some healthy Boids.
` Some people keep snakes strictly for breeding. These days, many people are regarding snakes as a goldmine, "Het for big bucks." Currently, my interest in Boids is in their behavior. So, ask yourself this: As your dog is a strict carnivore, what kind of a pet would it be, if it had to kill all of its meals? Would you be comfortable letting your kids play with it?
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"As your dog is a strict carnivore, what kind of a pet would it be, if it had to kill all of its meals? Would you be comfortable letting your kids play with it? "

Any dog or cat I've ever had has either eaten live prey on it's own, been allowed to or given live prey by me. It's never shown any effect on tameness. Trust me, just because your dog kills and eats a squirrel doesn't mean it's going to see your children as food. My current cat gets live prey only because she won't eat it thawed or if I kill it. When you start doing a little research on whats in cat and dog food you realise that it's not what you want to feed something you care about or just simply want to be healthy. I supplement their kibble diet with live prey.

BTW, dogs aren't strictly carnivorous.
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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

` Read what I wrote again. I said ALL of its meals. There is a point to phrasing it that way, which apparently you missed.
` There is a choice of ( expensive! ) foods which contain correct nutrients for dogs, and cats.
` BTW they are. As far as dog's nutritional needs, I refer you to Dr. Russel Swift, DVM, at this URL: www.craftycreatures.com/forferretsonly/ferretschool_vegetarianfeeding.html
` As far as trusting you, I think not, as you're animals are controlling what you do.
Besides, I learned long ago that when they say "trust me", it's time to go to different used car dealer.
` That's all...
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Nice ariticle, thank you. This was the same kind of research that led me to intentionally add whole prey items to my pets diet. I don't see how it makes a difference that their entire diet isn't live food. I still don't think this is going to make a dog want to attack and eat a human.

As far as dogs being strict carnivores. It's really hard to say because their is no native wild population anywhere. If you want to study urban ferals, I think you'd find them eating alot of non-meat garbage. Obviously their wild ancestors were carnivores though and yes, their system is designed for it.

I've read a study that showed thet even the "expensive" dog and cat food were not much different than the generics as far as nutritional value. I'll try to find it again.

This is extremely off topic and we should stop. Feel free to e-mail me.
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Martin Whalin

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld
My Email

I'd imagine that there is some nutrient loss with freezing versus live; however, I'd also imagine that the freezing process may even kill possible parasites, etc the prey may have?
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0.0.1 Ball Python
1.0.0 Kenyan Sand Boa "Gimli"

what is everyones take on feeding them anoles? i got a california king about 4 months ago and it refused to eat for over 4 weeks. i tossed and anole in there and he nailed it, so i know he wasn't going on a seasonal fasting. i tried to scent pinkies with anoles after that he he ignored them again. so i've just been feeding him anoles. his first 2 kills got a bite on him but i barely left a mark on him, i couldn't even notice them the next day. i would love to get him back on F/T for the money reason and the reasons that everyone has been listing. can anoles really hurt them or is it not that big of a threat. they are cheap here so i an afford them no problem, i'd just have to take care of them.