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Take the poll at the URL below and let us know your opinion
Click here to take the Venomoid Forum Poll

Edited on December 25, 2003 at 21:51:32 by jeffb.

I think it'd be a good idea to start a venomoid forum so that they can worry about the people that ask almost daily what is a venomoid and is it possible to remove a snake's venom glands etc. However, I also think it'd be a good idea to give the venomoid people their own classifieds so that they aren't mixed in with the intact venomous classifieds. I know I for one am always very disappointed when I see an ad for a rare or more unusual snake that I may consider adding to my collection, but discovering that it's a venomoid when I click on the ad. If it isn't possible to give them their own classifieds, then I think it should at least be a requirement to label all venomoid ads appropriately. I think, however, that with as many venomoids ads as I've been seeing, that if we can afford to give the gray banded king people their own classifieds, and the crocodillian people their own classifieds, which both have relatively little in the way of posting traffic, that surely we can give the venomoid people their own classifieds. I seriously doubt they would be, or should be, opposed to this.
-Chance Duncan

I don't know Chance, last I looked adding the venomoid forum
was losing by 1 in the polls. It was neck and neck.

This site has a gray-banded kingsnake classifieds because
at one time that is ALL that we allowed to be advertised
on the site. At one time all this site was, back in 1996 when it started, was a gray-banded kingsnake site (see The Alterna Page http://kingsnake.com/alterna)

This site has a crocodilian classifieds because they just didn't fit in the gecko or other lizard sections.

Adding features, whether they be forums or classified sections,
chat rooms or photo galleries, are not done willy nilly here. There are many different aspects including bandwidth, hardware, software, staffing, contractual obligations, legal issues, user requests, as well as user impact, that all must be reviewed and considered when a feature is added. Were we only getting 10-100 users per day then most of those issues would be mute and we could just whip them out on request, however kingsnake.com alone gets 50,000 visitors per day, and as I outlined above, we have
lots of things that we have to consider when we start something new.

Edited on December 26, 2003 at 00:16:10 by jeffb.

Political, Moral, Ethical, Cultural and Religious considerations
have to be taken into account as well

"Political, Moral, Ethical, Cultural and Religious considerations
have to be taken into account as well"

In that case, a reasonable policy could be that no inhumanely and illegally "home butchered" venomoids could be sold, limiting acceptable ads to snakes whose operations were performed legally, humanely and properly by a licensed veterinarian.

If animal cruelty is not to be considered seriously, liability might be. Could kingsnake.com be named as a party to a lawsuit when one of these amateur homebrew jobs advertised on kingsnake.com as venomoid turns out to have been an incomplete job? It's worth thinking about. Even if the suit isn't successful, the resultant publicity would not be good for anyone involved. The standards have to be set somewhere, and there are not many people in a better position to help set those standards.

Kingsnake.com is a powerful presence in the herp community, and its policies do have a strong influence on the market. One of the indirect influences that this site has had is the increase in the number of snakes being inhumanely butchered by non veterinarians who are practicing without a license for profit. Some days, ads for venomoids seem to outnumber the non mutilated animals for sale in the kingsnake.com classifieds. You can take a positive step to help curb these less savory aspects of this industry if you choose to do so.

I would still consider a venomoid as breeding stock, on the condition that I was not in any way supporting venomoid makers financially by purchasing the animal. Eg, this animal has already passed through many hands and is now owned by a private collector who does not specifically profit by selling venomoids. It would have to be an exceptional animal that was not available in unaltered form however.

Venomoids are in the same class to me as some of the badly abused, injured animals I've managed to get healthy again but they're still scarred or missing parts. I am sorry they were crippled by human greed and carelessness, and I think they deserve to be cared for like any other abuse survivor. I won't support the abuse by giving my money to the people who are doing it however.

Why not just refuse to post "venomoid ad's all together?
It's yours/Pet Hobbyists site anyway.

Your moderator can simply remove all "Classified and Forum posts concerning "venomoids". Why give any creedence to "venomoids" anyway?
If Kingsnake did this, this would send a strong message to people "playing vet", and for others "showing off their mutilated cobra" or whatever the reasons THEY justify to owning "venomoids".
Just Say No! (to venomoids)!

Randal Berry

I am looking into getting a hot and will definitely not purchase from those who sell butchered snakes. It's a shame that it's done and should someone get bit by what they thought was a butcher job, well to bad.
In other words no they shouldn't have a clasified section or forum to perpetuate this cruelty. Why give credibility to it.
I can see all the flaming already once a butcher tries to sell the idea that the animals don't suffer...

I completely agree that kingsnake should not allow the sale or probably even discussion of venomoids as most, if not all, are done illegally and certain inhumanely. However, the fact is that kingsnake is obviously not going to ban either of the above mentioned things. If they were going to, it would already be banned. So since they are going to allow venomoids to be sold and talked about, I would personally rather not have them in the same area as serious venomous discussion and sales. So in a way, my reasoning is that voting no on this subject is really saying "Yes, I want venomoids to continue to be asked about in my forum and continue to be sold in my classifieds." I don't know about all of you, but I would rather not have this.

So maybe instead of just voting no on this subject, we or kingsnake should start a new poll asking whether venomoids should even be allowed here. Jeff hasn't responded at all to the stances those of you have taken behind not wanting a venomoid forum, so maybe it would take an organized effort to really get somewhere. If you, like me, are tired of seeing them here, then by all means get organized, start a petition, etc, and voice your real opinions. It's obvious that the majority of users of this website are against the idea of venomoids, but simply voting no on this issue however isn't enough. Anyway, thanks for reading.
-Chance Duncan
River Valley Snakes

You may want to consider how endorsing and encouraging venomoid practicioners by offering them their own forum will affect kingsnake.com's reputation. Do you really want it said that "Jeff Barringer is pro-venomoid, he actively supports the venomoid community"? Regardless of your personal opinion on the venomoid debate, you may wish to consider the impact of kingsnake.com appearing to take an official position on one side of it.

Additionally, do you really want to put the resources of kingsnake.com behind legitimizing the venomoid industry as it exists today? The reality of how venomoids are created for the commercial market is a harsh one, involving illegal practices by non veterinarians, inadequate drugs, "surgical" tools from Home Depot and a high mortality rate. I would have much less of a problem with this industry if the standards were set by veterinarians performing the operation humanely and properly, but that just isn't the reality.

You have considerable power to make a difference, one way or another. You could create a classifieds section for venomoids, and set the standard that no snake may be advertised there unless its operation was performed legally and humanely by a licensed veterinarian. To set up their accounts, each advertiser could send a letter from their veterinarian stating that he or she is performing venomoid surgeries for this particular dealer. For individual collectors who have accounts, a statement of origin in the ad might suffice. I expect there might be "cheaters", and I don't expect kingsnake.com to spend a lot of administrative time on individual enforcement, but the most important thing is to set the publically acceptable standard for the herp community.

I don't think it is workable to try to set that standard as "no venomoids allowed". I do think it is perfectly reasonable to set the standard as "no illegal and inhumane home butchering by non veterinarians allowed". You can make that difference if you choose to do so. Please consider it.

Other forums and mailing lists currently exist to discuss venomoids, which has mostly solved the problem of massive flaming on this forum every time someone wants to talk about them. I do not believe that kingsnake.com will benefit by adding a forum for venomoid discussion. For starters, I suspect that some of the most vocal of our anti-venomoiders from this forum will decide to put their .02 into the new forum, which will make for an endless administrative headache that I don't think you really want.

I sincerely hope that kingsnake.com will not give support to this sort of thing by opening a venomoid forum, classified section or anything else.

Venomoid surgery will probably never be properly regulated. Can one ever be sure that the procedure was performed by a licensed vet?

Most veterinarians will not perform these cruelly invasive procedures.

Most of these animals are "operated on" in unsterile back alley chop shops without proper equipment or anesthetic.

Nobody really knows for sure if the glands or ducts are capable of growing back (talk about potential liability).

These animals almost always go into the hands of unexperienced people who don't understand these animals needs and are not capable of handling or caring for a venomoid (which may likely be a problem feeder or have health issues from the surgery) or an intact specimen.

Many venomoid owners do not use proper security measures with these animals which increases the chance of escape and more bad press for a hot community that cannot afford ANY more bad PR.

These are just a few of the reasons WHY NOT. In the end it all comes down to the almighty dollar in the venomoid scene and in reality one can make a much better living in the breeding buisiness without being a detriment to these fascinating animals and the community that loves them. It is highly possible that this poll will score in favor of a venmoid forum. Does that make it right to support and condone this damaging procedure by giving it its own forums and classifieds? I say NO. As was previously stated Kingsnake.com sets a standard and a precedence in the herpetoculture community. PLEASE set the right example. We are counting on you to DO THE RIGHT THING.

Tad Wood

:}

For all the above reasons.
Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Personally I think there should not be a venomoid forum or venomoids allowed to be sold in the classifieds. If you look at the facts concerning venomoids, in my eyes it totally goes against everything that kingsnake.com stands for. I expect there is a lot of illegal activity going on with the making of such animals and I'd love nothing more than to see it stopped right here! Thanks Jeff!
-----
Mark Kennedy Reptiles

I also feel that do to the illegal nature of most venomoid surgeries, the inability to regulate these procedures, the possibility of legal repercussions from the bite of an improperly devenomed snake, the fact that venomoids have fully venomous offspring and most importantly the unnecessary suffering and high mortality rate of these animals....

venomoid animals should NOT be allowed to be sold on kingsnake.com period.

This is a cruel and unusual practice that is highly exploitative and anti-conservation at its very core. If nothing else this practice is a perfect target to fuel the fires of radical anti-pet groups. Again, we count on kingsnake.com to do the right thing.

I believe that if the only way one can keep an animal of ANY kind comfortably is to mutilate it in some way, then perhaps you need to rethink you choice of pet.

~dp
-----
~David

N/P
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Why make it Kingsnake.com problem....They are a tool to deliver animals and info, nothing more nothing less.
Why not take the responsibility upon ourselves. Don't buy ANYTHING from a dealer that sells venomoids. Sure you have the occasional indiviual selling/reselling these "cut" creatures. But the dealers, some have been around for years, some are new. The best advertising tool for these companies is reputation. If they are willing to deal in venomoids than they are not a reputable dealer...? I refuse to buy animals from anyone who sells or has sold venomoids. If everyone with a collective voice were to email each company that regularly sells them, that they will no longer buy from said company...if they got 50-100 of those emails, they would listen. But you would have to stick with your word... and pass up the deal for a "trio of your most sought after species at the best deal ever"
Then it doesn't matter who continues to sell them, because they will soon crumble. When I say don't buy ANYTHING that means nothing not just the venomous!
Anyway my 2 cents!

A buisiness like kingsnake.com IS morally responsible for what is allowed to be sold through their buisiness. The venomous classifieds are a major reason (among others)that venomoid animals have become so popular. Before the easy access to these sad creatures venomoids were restricted to an obscure pocket of herpetoculture. Now they are viewed by many novice keepers as a readily available and acceptable alternative to owning a burmese python. Kingsnake is the one online reptile buisiness that EVERYONE knows about. They could make a difference in the conservation of these animals by simply NOT allowing them to be sold through their website. Venomoid sales pale in comparison to the huge amounts of money that many of us diehard reptile lovers shell out each year to the hobby. Many venomoids will be sold to a one time impulse buyer. Just something to think about.

Crotalus75
Thats why everyone that spends buttloads of money on their herps each year should black ball the dealers that are selling them, then kngsnake.com wouldn't have an issue as to whether or not to have a venomoid forum, The dealers would stop offering them when they lose all the good buisness from the envenomateable keepers.
Might take awhile, and we might have to put off buying some stuff for ourselves for awhile, but the venomoids will fade away just like every pathetic genetic mutation/mutilation has in the past.
The popularity will eventually fade.
Think about it..

I agree with the principle of what you are saying. We do need to boycott those individuals that are making, selling and keeping venomoids. I have had to decline from purchasing a number of animals that I REALLY wanted because the dealer or individual also sold venomoids.

BUT... Being responsible about who we purchase from does NOT release a major force like kingsnake.com from moral and ethical responsability. If more major companies stood up for the right thing these sort of problems would be severely curbed.

NP

Okay now before I discuss my ideas on venomoids, I would first like to say PLEASE view this with an open mind and don't just look to flame me and start and arguement...

I too am against venomoids that are being produced my people unqualified for the task, i see you guys like to call them "garage hack jobs"

BUT what about the small percentage of venomoids that are being produced by licensed veterenarians?

There is an operation, local to me (New York) that is producing venomoids. The person doing the procedures (I won't give names) is a licensed veterenarian. The snakes are given the proper anesthetic(sp) and are being well cared for. The person doing the operations is not out to make money by producing venomoids. He is doing it simply to provide those who wish to study these animals without risking their life and family members well-being an opportunity to do so.

I for one am planning on purchasing a venomoid from him later this year. The reasoning behind my purchase of a venomoid is this: I would first like to gain experience working with hots along side some keepers in my area. However I don't feel that is enough "training" for lack of a better word to put myself in danger whilst keeping a venomous snake. So what I plan to do is keep the venomoid for a few years, and learn from professionals the proper techniques and practice those techniques on a venomoid animal; where there is a slight margin for error. Should I be bitten, it will not be fatal or tragic.

Also look at it this way, people who keep and maintain venomoid animals for their own learning experience have a margin for error. Should they be bit, that bite does not become a burden on the entire corresponding group of hot keepers out there. I feel that venomoids will help to further insure the right for those who wish to keep hots, a reality. Basically what I am trying to say is that if an unexperienced person who wishes to learn to keep hots, starts off with a venomoid and he/she makes a mistake, that mistake is not published in the news and there is no "bad" press being put forth on those who legitimately keep hots.

Now I know what you are going to say, if you don't want to put yourself in danger, then simply don't keep hots, right?

Yes this is all well and good, but the fact of the matter is that these animals are fascinating to those of us who do wish to study them without risking our lives. And for those of you who are going to say that you are not studying the animal in its natural state because it's venom glands have been removed, then I have this to say.

NEITHER ARE YOU, you are not out in the field in Asia studying these snakes in their "natural state" or "natural environment" you are studying the snake in a terrarium in your own house where you are trying to simulate it's natural conditions. The key word being simulate. No matter how hard you try to make its conditions realistic, they will never suffice for a natural habitat, out in the wild. YOU are providing the snake with food and water, the snake does not have to hunt, afterall how hard is it for Cerastes Cerastes to "hunt" a mouse in it's 3x2 terrarium with no place for the mouse to hide or anything?

Is the snake really enduring any hardship whilst trying to obtain water? NO, you are providing it with water.

So for those of you who are going to make that arguement, take a good look at the last two paragraphs and actually take the time out to think about them, before you begin to argue and flame me.

I am sorry but I started out this post with an open mind towards everything but it is very disgraceful to see legitiment venomoids and the keepers who wish to keep them flamed and bashed over and over again. It's just not right.

If you want to say that it's butchering and cruel, well that I say this, it is cruel for you to keep the snakes in the first place, enclosued in a terrarium, although this is not my belief, this is my counter-arguement for you.]

Thank you for your time and sorry for that rant,
Ralph
-----
0.0.1 Argentine Black and White Tegu
0.0.1 Baby Aru Green Tree Python
2.1 Bearded Dragon
0.0.4 Hatchling Bearded Dragons
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
1.0 Florida Brooksi Kingsnake
1.0 Blood Red Cornsnake
1.0 Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Western Hognose Snake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

Arguing that it is equally cruel to keep a snake in captivity as it is to mutilate it doesn't hold up. When an owner takes good care of their cat or dog by making sure the animal stays safely indoors or in a fenced yard, we call that responsible pet ownership. When somebody declaws their cat on the kitchen table with the garden shears or debarks their dog with a razor blade, we call that abuse. Big, big difference. Captivity itself does not constitute cruelty, if the animal is properly housed and fed and all of its needs are humanely met. Mutilation does.

I have much less of a problem with venomoids made by veterinarians using proper anesthesia and pain medication, but certainly some ethical concerns remain. Even under the best of conditions, we are still talking about an majorly invasive operation that causes significant pain and physical trauma for no health benefit to the patient. Imagine how you would feel after mouth surgery despite receiving pain medication from your doctor. It hurts. It is a cruel thing to do to a snake merely for selfish human gratification.

Anyone with the patience to learn the proper techniques and to purchase the proper tools can handle venomous snakes safely without any need to mutilate them first. I am an older lady barely 5 foot tall with bad knees and thick glasses, and my reflexes are much too slow to play arcade games. I do not consider it at all difficult to work with venomous snakes, including adult king cobras and mambas. And I am doing considerably more hands-on work than most keepers should ever need to. Able bodied young people should be deeply ashamed of themselves if they mutilate a snake because they have not the patience to learn to do a small fraction of what a little old lady does routinely before breakfast.

Snakes are long tubes with one sharp pointy end and one convenient handle. They cannot fly and they are not magic. Their physical restraint is mechanically very simple. Even an inexperienced keeper can manage venomous snakes easily and safely for routine maintenance with the help of tools such as trap boxes and hooks. It's just not that hard. Bites happen through carelessness, taking shortcuts and forgetting about good safety protocol. Having a venomoid doesn't teach self-discipline, which is the main thing you need to stay unbitten. If anything it teaches the opposite lesson of instant gratification at another living creature's expense.

If you really think you need to cripple an animal before you could keep it safely, you are not ready to keep that species at all. Please learn some respect and compassion and keep only the animals that you are ready to care for humanely without mutilating them.

n/p

n/p

You know, I made that post to defend some of the legitimate venomoid keepers and producers out there that have a right to keep their animals, without putting themselves in harms way. Your arguments are short and blatant and are easily counter-argued. Your arguments all boil down to human morals, which I am not even going to begin to get involved with.

You came out at me and made it a personal attack, so that’s how I am going to defend it.

However, I must say you did a very nice job of nit-picking my individual points and arguing them and never saying a word about the positive aspects of an inexperienced keeper keeping venomoids.

Now your argument on keeping and maintaining dogs and cats really holds no weight. Would you like to know why? I'm sure you would, well here it is, they are DOMESTICATED ANIMALS. Snakes or any reptiles for that matter are not. I AM NOT ARGUING FOR GARAGE HACK JOBS. I am arguing the fact that legitimate venomoids are being produced. I am in no way saying that producing venomoids with tools from your local hardware store and improper anesthetic is right, I am simply saying that there are people out there who are producing the venomoids legally and humanely.

Also, I'm sure you read the part about not receiving any more bad press, which we all know the venomous community has received a lot of this past year with the tragic death of that fireman and everything. Go ahead debate that topic, argue how it would be better for an inexperienced keeper to keep venomous reptiles and be bitten, rather than have them learn on a venomoid so as they can learn the proper techniques.

So your argument to this is that they are learning the wrong techniques, because of temptation, or instant gratification at another beings expense? PLEASE, you have to be kidding me. Let me ask you this, do you eat meat? Do you enjoy that meat? Is that not instant gratification at another beings expense? If you were to take a look at the human body and study it, you would learn that neither our chemical digestive system nor our mechanical digestive system is designed to eat meat, however most humans especially children dislike fruits and vegetables, and in order to obtain “instant gratification” we kill and mutilate another animal. (Have you taken a look at slaughter houses, if you would like to argue your animal rights, and the right to not be mutilated then you need look no further than that.)

Also I really liked how you made it out to seem as if I was defending the garage hack jobs. If you were to re-read my post I simply said that I was planning on purchasing a venomoid from a vet, who is producing these animals legally, and humanely.

Oh yeah and I really liked the part of how you are a "little old lady" and any young able bodied person should be able to learn the proper techniques, for maintaining venomous snakes. My argument is this, yes we are young and able-bodied, and we wish to remain that way, no need to put ourselves in harms way by keeping a venomous snake. So what your going to say is this, then don't keep hots, right? Let me ask you this, what is your reasoning behind keeping hots? Are you doing some world-renowned research that is going to save the lives of thousands of people each year? Are you milking your snakes, so as to help produce anti-venom to help save the lives of others? I can almost guarantee you that 98% of the venomous population is keeping these animals for personal satisfaction. Why shouldn't those who wish to keep them without the danger be able to keep them for their satisfaction? Were they denied this right a birth? Are you some high and mighty being that has the right to obtain personal satisfaction at the cost of keeping a non-domesticated animal? Should we not spay and neuter our cats and dogs, simply because it is a burden on the animal? Should we let them propagate until they become a burden to us and then do something about it? Should we allow an inexperienced keeper to keep venomous reptiles an wait until he sustains a bite before we do something about it? When the whole situation could have been avoided by simply allowing him to learn on an animal where there was a margin for error. The truth is this, we are human beings, we are the dominant species on this planet, and we were brought into this world with the right to achieve personal satisfaction. Why should we be deeply ashamed of ourselves if we wish to study an animal without putting ourselves in danger? Why?

If you want to turn this into a big flame-fest against me then guess what, I am going to flip it onto you, because if what you are saying is that the animals have a right to not be "mutilated" (By the way, should we also stop removing tonsils once they become infected, because we are mutilating the human body? Are we destroying g**'s canvas? Do you have any piercing or tattoos? Well than think of it this way, you shouldn't have those either because all you are doing is mutilating your body anyway.) please explain yourself better. Answer me this, when 90% of the population on earth has sexual intercourse for their own pleasure and they use some method of birth control, are they wrong? Isn’t the whole purpose of intercourse to reproduce and further increase the population of a species? What it comes down to is this, man is the dominant species and he can do as he pleases to an extent, so why should he not be allowed to keep venomoid animals that were legally and humanely produced? Why should he have to put himself in danger? Why not first learn the proper techniques on a venomoid, where there is a margin for error, and then venture into venomous reptiles?

Let me ask you this, when you were first taught to drive, were you taken onto the highway in a car and told to “go”? Were you completely able to drive a car from simply watching someone else, or being supervised by someone else? NO, the real experience that you gain as a driver was probably when you were by yourself. Keeping venomous snakes can be looked at much the same way. No matter how many times you watch someone handle a venomous snake with a hook, you will never be able to do it until you try it yourself. You have to make mistakes, it is human nature. We as human beings are not perfect, we make mistakes, and why should we have to die for those mistakes, when a procedure that was performed by a licensed veterinarian, could have saved your life?

Thank you for your time, and please have a nice day.
-----
0.0.1 Argentine Black and White Tegu
0.0.1 Baby Aru Green Tree Python
2.1 Bearded Dragon
0.0.4 Hatchling Bearded Dragons
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
1.0 Florida Brooksi Kingsnake
1.0 Blood Red Cornsnake
1.0 Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Western Hognose Snake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

Perfectly said.
Your answer should be the end of discussion on this topic.

oop's, I meant "perfectly said" meaning MsTT's post!

To answer some of your statements I refer you to a post titled "the morals, ethics and legalities of venomoids"

http://wwwDOTsnakesDOTcom/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=27

You must replace DOT with "." (a period) AND add an extra "S" next to each S in the word SNAKES for this link to work, but if you are really interested in this debate it shouldn't be much trouble.

It always amazes me how people can be presented with numerous factual repercussions of a certain action (in this case venomoid surgery) and still they will come up with all manner of hollow self justifying reasons why they are in the right to do whatever damaging and degrading action they feel like doing no matter what the cost (in this case to these animals and the community that loves them). This is an inherently human "quality" that those without any forsight or moral backbone routinely fall prey to.

Sorry...but the part about humans not designed to eat meat just is not accurate. That was an idea that was once held as fact by research done by pro-vegetarian groups and has since been disproven. There are nutrients in meat that man needs and Vegi's don't supply. We are not by nature Herbifores, we are Omnivorous. The other great apes eat meat on occasion, as do pigs and even the Caribou (on obvious herbifore) suppliments it's diet with the occasional rodent. So munch that Burger...Guilt Free!!
Your comparing human voluntary self disfigurement does not justify involuntary mutilation of animals. World of difference there. Removing Tonsils is a disease treatment...Not mutilation. It is no different than removing a gangrenous limb.
And what has this got to do with human sexual intercourse.....Kinky!
I disagree that keeping a venomoid gives you safe experience with that species. First of all not all venomoids are 100% venom free (you'd better be sure of the quality of that operation). Second; It makes you comfortable handling a species that people should handle with extreme care. This reduces the natural sense of caution and can lead to an accident.
And finally; Hatchlings born of Venomoids have their full allotment of venom producing equipment.
About the best arguement against creating venomoids is that venom is also a pre-digestant. You are taking away an important part of the snakes digestive process. That can't be good for the animal.
I have kept venomous for many years. I am a 6'4" 250 lb (weight lifter) 52 year old man (didn't want you to think I was another little old lady. My edge with venomous is my fear/respect. That is what keeps me from those little mistakes when I have to move one. The day I am comfortable with venomous is the day I will stop keeping them.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Ok....Reread your post. First; Man is not the dominant species on this planet. Granted he makes a bigger mess than any. But with 7/8ths of the world under water, the majority of the land mass on this planet is in the care of fish. In the ocean, man is a tourist. In the air he still is inferior to the bird. On land; he still cannot beat the ant or the cockroach, or the Rat. Those species have been here a lot longer than us and are a lot more resistant to our screwups than we are.
We do not have carte-blanc to do pretty much what we please, which is why we have trashed our enviroment. Everything we do has a price. What is sad is that other species pay for our mistakes.
By your Sex for reproduction only statement I'm guessing that you are either Catholic or a Fundamentalist. My wife is glad I don't buy into that garbage. She had her children and we are really not into being monks and nuns.
Finally define Domesticated Animal. Any dog, cat, horse, pig, or even cow that goes back into the wild loses that domestic quality (man imposed training) in order to survive. Is not a captive born and raised reptile as domestic as any of those?
In all, you are grasping at anything that backs up your belief system. This pomposity about we have the right to mutilate and severely handicap a snake, because our safety is more important than the animal we butcher is pure garbage. It ranks right in there with bobbing a dog's tail and croping it's ears to make it look "pretty".
Face it. The creation of Venomoids is pretty ---- brutal and ugly. It is not born of nature...It is another example of that arrogant need to dominate that makes us try to shape everything to suit our agenda.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

comparison of human flight with bird flight
the F/A 22 Raptor is pretty damn good!

If you want to discuss domination in terms of population then yes, man is not the dominant species.

If you want to talk about domination in relation to intelligence and ability, man is by far the dominant species on this earth.

As far as my arguements I was simply trying to defend some of the venomoid keepers out there who are being bashed over and over again. Take it for what it is worth.

Ralph
-----
0.0.1 Argentine Black and White Tegu
0.0.1 Baby Aru Green Tree Python
2.1 Bearded Dragon
0.0.4 Hatchling Bearded Dragons
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
1.0 Florida Brooksi Kingsnake
1.0 Blood Red Cornsnake
1.0 Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Western Hognose Snake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

As a species we are clever in that we create many things. But we use the gift of imagination to create mass death and destruction. We are the only species that chooses to live by trying to force the enviroment to suit our ambitions rather than adapting with it for our practical needs. The result is we are the only species that is not in harmony with it's enviroment. By that measure of "applied" intellect we are inferior to everything. I should note that the only time you see a animal or plant species doing real damage is when we (humans) choose to move from where it belongs.

But back to venomoids. Protecting practitioners/advocates of this butchery, negates our stance as advocates of nature. To a certain extent this also includes those who are only interested in the art of creating freaks for the pet trade, but at least these people are not cutting on their animals for convieniance and are supplying a healthy alternative to taking animals out of the wild.

Venimoids are one of the dirty little down sides to this hobby. They really don't need to be encouraged and definitly should be shunned by anyone who cares about the future of this hobby. What a Legacy to pass on.....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I just can't believe my eyes..Just voted no like everybody should do but the shocking part is that the vote for yes is more on this forum. Why? Why should you torture an animal like that.If you are affraid of the venom just stay away from these beautifull animals and keep non-venemous pecies.

It makes me really sad to see that there are allot of you guys who like this section...Just stop messing with mother nature and leave these animals allone and in one piece like they are supposed to be.
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If you hate politics and love the music we will never die!!

...if you would read rather than just rant, you would realize not all of us voted yes because we like venomoids. I very much am opposed to them, I just don't want venomoids to be discussed in my forums or even sold in my classifieds along with my intact snakes. That's why I voted yes.

I have to admit....I have been following this , but I'm confused. I voted no because to give Venomoids a forum would be to legitamatise them. I understand you don't want them on the regular forums but you are approving having them elsewhere. Could you be more specific as to why you would want that?
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hey Frank. See, the thing is, they are already legitimized on kingsnake, whether we like it or not. Kingsnake has been allowing the sale and discussion of venomoids for quite some time now. They are not going to change now obviously. Did you noticed Jeff B hasn't responded to anyone's post but my own up there? He doesn't seem to mind venomoids being sold, as the sellers make him just as much money as any others. I'm not saying Jeff is a bad person because of this, he's a smart businessman. So, if kingsnake is going to allow the sale and discussion of venomoids, why would we keep them in the intact venomous forums and classifieds? I know I for one am tired of the once a week question "Can you really take out a snake's poison glands? What are they called?" Do you not get tired of them? I also am tired of ads that don't specify that the snake for sale is a venomoid, and when I click on it I discover it is. It's not just the nonspecific ads that bug me, it's the ads for rare snakes that have been mutilated that *really* bug me as well. Anyway, that's the reasoning behind my stance of voting yes. Making the venomoid people discuss their practice in a separate place from the rest of us legitimate herpers and keepers wouldn't be promiting or legitimitizing them any more than letting them discuss it here. Everyone has his/her own reasons for voting yes or no, these are mine for voting yes. I'm not trying to convince other people to vote a certain way though, as there are obviously different viewpoints on both decisions.
-Chance

Can't really argue with your reasons. That's what makes this kind of thing a pain. Either way...you win and lose......
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

i think they'll start one. even if more "no" votes show up than "yes"... simply because there seems to be a high demand for them.

i voted no. it's mutilation and i don't agree with or support that "practice" at all.

Wether you want it to exsist or not, it is going to happen! Support it for Christ's sake! If you are going to [bleep] that it is inhumane then do something about it and speak up for a new technique, and think up a better one! People declaw their cats, people spay and neuter nearly anything that walks! In hollywood people get boob jobs, nose jobs, and liposuction! Wanna talk immoral and unethical? Well go complain somewhere else! Some people need venomoids, and other don't. To each their own! If you want to be like Budman (ironic name) then go ahead and curse at the "fixed" hots, but that does nothing! Some people (maybe even those with "bud" in their name) should not have a venomous snake. If you have one you will either get hit by it, or have gotten tagged in the past! It is a fact of venomous keepers, and a rule to live by! There are many views on venomoids, but they will continue to exsist, and in time may become VERY popular. With any hopes this will lead to better health for fixed snakes, a better understanding for the animals, and even more respect for their wild hot counterparts! Just think about it for a second, and try to understand why some people can't keep hots, but for them a venomoid would work! I am getting some cobras fixed now, and I don't care who says what. I know they will live as long if not longer as their hot counterparts, as I have already seen cobras that had the operation last over 12 years easy! I give educational shows to the general public...try taking a hot animal into a mall with 500 kids around! Not safe! Plus, at home I have younger kids to worry about, other pets which could get hurt etc....a liability issue at the least! Think about it!

-Steve Clark
Soon to be venomoid owner of a bunch of cobras!

I read your post and I'm still shaking my head. You actually advocate disfiguring a snake for your convienance? What part of "venom is a necessary part of a snakes digestive system" do you not understand? That they live as long as non fixed snakes is irrelevent. Your statements indicate that you are not interested in the welfare of the animals. Just in satisfying your need to keep a trophy snake.

As I stated above...People getting Boob, nose or other Jobs or any of that are doing it voluntarily. Snakes do not ask to be altered nor dogs clipped. Big difference. That you would seek to teach children that mutilisation is a good thing is horrible. And that is what you do when you show off an venomoid snake. you are not teaching them about the danger this animal can be because children do not easily make the distinction. What they will see is a cool snake they will want. And that could have serious consequences.

I have long contended that there are two types of people in this hobby. Those who love and respect their animals-and those who only think of them as trophies to be used, altered or destroyed depending on their (the owners) convieniance. Which one are you?

There is a better way. Leave the snake as nature made it; and if your children's safety is an issue, well then...you don't have to have a venomous snake. That is the responsible way to handle it.

And if you don't like my complaint. Too Bad. Not everyone agrees with you.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Educational shows my @$$, what are you educating the public about..... when you really sit back and think about it most kids would be just as happy holding or just touching a ball python or even a corn snake. If you wanted to bring something exotic bring a green tree python and an emerald tree boa and stick them on a tree, then maybe you can educate on convergent evolution ( when animals in similar habitats develop the same behavioral ecology, color, pattern across the world from each other ). What will you do the day you are holding the venomoid albino monocle cobra and it turns and tags you, how are you really going to know whether it is hot or not, will you still go to the hospital or will you take the risk of dropping dead in front of a bunch of kids ( possibly dropping the snake in the process what will you do then when the kids you are educating are facing off with a cobra and your in the throes of anaphylactic shock ). People like you terrify me, this is what is going to get hots banned all over, because a moron like you brings a "venomoid" into a crowded mall you dont know what your doing because your just a big moron who hasnt bothered to be a real man about it and learn how to handle hots the correct way, you get tagged its not really fixed and the hsus has a field day on all of us because you are a very selfish person without the sense God gave a billy goat. Why dont you go get a vasectomy because that is basically the same thing as a venomoid surgery, you dont want to deal with venom, your wife doesnt want to deal with the $pooge. I shouldnt get angry at people like you but this whole venomoid things just pi$$e$ me off to no end yall are just a bunch of PU$$Y$ who dont do this out of love just for money. If you going to get a venomoid get a six foot venomoid gaboon because when that big heffer bites you i want to know that it hurt really bad, i hope she holds on too because i want people like you that hurt animals that are put in your hands to care for to squirm you are all about the almight dollar nothing more go get you a whole bunch of venomoids but dont come back to this forum because your arent welcome, in fact im BANNING YOU!!!!!!!!!!

WHERE IS TJ WHEN YOU NEED HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And just who are you for banning a man from speaking his mind? hmmm? What happened to a little thing called freedom of speech?You guys that keep hots are all on a permanent power trip and you all think you are god. I'm sure when you get bit(god forbid that should happen as i would never wish that on anyone)I'm sure your view on venomoids will change REAL quick...Are you better than him because you are so rough and tough and are able to keep hots?! you have got to be kidding me...

So what are you gunna do now, come and ban me to?! PLEASE!! HAHA what a loser....

Have a nice day!
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0.0.1 Argentine Black and White Tegu
0.0.1 Baby Aru Green Tree Python
2.1 Bearded Dragon
0.0.4 Hatchling Bearded Dragons
1.1 Honduran Milksnake
1.0 Florida Brooksi Kingsnake
1.0 Blood Red Cornsnake
1.0 Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Western Hognose Snake
1.0 Bull Mastiff

If I get bit my view on fixed animals wont change at all. In this hobby the people that get bit are the ones making dumb mistakes, not to say i dont ever make mistakes, i just try to be very careful when i handle my venomous reptiles. If im bitten it will be because i have made a mistake. Venomoids in my opinion just arent right, when i posted the first time i was very rash and angry at the gentlemans callousness. Venomous reptiles are just that Venomous they werent put here to be venomoid. A venomoid reptile is just for the owners courtesy nothing else. Venomoids are nothing more than an animal suffering needlessly for a selfish persons desire. But im not god so i cant run around on here banning people like i want to so all you venomoiders can stay just keep your venomoid opinions to yourself, some on here dont like it, all it does is flood the forum with nonsense. This used to be a very good resource for new keepers but now all we see is flame wars.

n/p

How can you acutally say you are going to own a hot, when its as worthless as a corn snake. Dont bring the BS up about oh I have kids ect. Thats bull, if you cant handle the real thing, dont get it. Whats educational about showing it off when you know in the back of your mind it cant do anything to you. Cut the crap and get the real thing.

Joe

Whats educational about showing it off knowing that it can hurt you?

I don't support venomoids, but I don't support turning a beutiful wolf into a poodle either. It is still done. Most of the individuals owning "hot" snakes shouldn't have them either. But it is still done. Kingsnake doesn't support either, they provide the place for discussion of all the stuff people do. Just because it isn't right doesn't mean they support it.
Look at all the pics in the galleries, people free handling snakes, some even post pics of licking black mambas. Does that mean kingsnake supports bestiality?
No it just provides a place for people to do what they do.
Look at all the pics of the junk, cluttered snake rooms, should these people own hots? probably not. But they do, so let people do what they do. (except for the garage hack jobs) Don't Flame people for their beliefs.
Testosterone and venomous snakes don't mix. But look at all the people that are ego filled idiots, they still have them.
Look at all the people that don't believe venomous snakes should be kept anywhere but zoo's. Kingsnake still provided the venomous forums. If you don't agree with a certain forum, don't go visit it.
As far as painfully altering an animal for our pleasure...
Who among us hasn't "altered" a mouse from the living state to the dead state for our own pleasure? ( of owning a live snake)
Just live and let live people!!! ( Can't we all just get along)

T.A.P. Next time I painfully alter a hamburger (from it's wrapper to my stomach) I will think of your example. Killing a mouse for food is a necessity to keep the snake alive. Cutting on a snake to make it "safer to handle" is not necessary and just serving our needs. it doesn't take a genius to figure out which of these constitutes abuse.
Unfortunatly we do not have the luxury of "Live and let Live." The production and keeping of Venomoids (as I stated earlier) reflects on the whole hobby.
Budman made a very good point. Practices like this make for great fuel for anti groups like PETA. With so many enemies and legislation underway to curtail our rights, I really feel we should not favor a forum that advertises such a practice.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

np

It always amazes me at how many are "X-Files , the Government is out to get me weirdos..

You are your own worst enemy, PETA needs no more fuel than we keep and eat animals. (many of which do so irresponsibly, but we won't go there again will we Frank).
They are a bunch of wackos, much like the "activists" that have been spouting off here.

Enjoy your cheeseburger, I'm gonna have a T-Bone!

Let 'em have the forum posted at the bottom. We should also ask if they would do a forum for all the ego filled people that think they are the experts and people shouldn't come here for advise on what is a good "starter venomous snake" If you don't like something posted don't respond to it.
Worry about your own collection and how you come accross to others. PETA included..

But if I did not respond it would not be a forum! I'll take my Burger rare......
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

n/p

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