Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, gang. I just re-read many of the recent "tongue problem" posts, checked out some sites and my books. So now I am even more confused. Here’s the scoop.

There have been three loose crix in Luna's cage for days. They hang around her basking light so they are an easy mark. I am disappointed each day when all three are still there. So today I dusted (cal w/d3 and Herptivite) two crix and put them in a cup. She seemed to get excited and began to shoot but missed by a lot and she didn’t seem to have strength in her tongue. I waited awhile then tried again. She practically climbed in the cup and her tongue shot a short distance, slowly, and a cricket stuck to it and she pulled it in. She did the same with the second but seemed to have a little trouble chewing but she ate them both. She was not interested in more but I was glad she ate that much.

Just a little bit ago she was gaping, but differently. You know when hey gape you don’t see the tongue in the mouth area? Well her mouth was half-gaping and her tongue was sort of sitting there. I tried to get a pic but no luck. I took her to a mirror but she didn’t get all huffy and didn’t open her mouth for me.

A few days ago I posted about Luna’s leaky mouth forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=283458,283458 but no one replied

I am now wondering if all of this is connected. You all know I obsess but the combination of things has me worried. I read that this could be a deficiency in Vit A!? I still find it strange that she never changes her color regardless of temperature, being handled, going places – nothing.

For the record my crix get carrots, apple, broccoli, cherries, tomatoes and currently Flukers gutload (ran out of herp nutrition’s)

Is it vet time?

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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

...she tends to lounge on her branches and rarely holds herself up while basking. When she went out to her jungle gym while I cleaned her cage the other day she didn't cruise it like she used to but just stayed in one place. I guess she seems to be getting generally lethargic.

worried,
lele
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

Lele, I'm sorry to hear that you are worried about Luna. I really hope that nothing serious is wrong with her and that you are just obsessing, like many of us tend to do. I'm not any help, but for the record, how often are you dusting and with what?

Kristen
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1.1 pygmy leaf
1.1 carpet
1.0 jackson
0.0.3 red eared sliders

In my opinion, however humble, I would strongly recommend arranging for a vet visit for Luna. Of course it is difficult to ascertain the root of Luna's problem via emails like this, but the "leaky mouth", the half-gaping, and now the tongue mis-shooting all are starting to add up to--sorry to say--the start of MBD. There are different reasons for hypo-calcemia, but one of the initial signs is a term vets call "rubber jaw," where the lower jawbone becomes weak from the chameleon's body removing calcium from its bones (where its stored) to compensate for low blood levels. Because the jawbone is weakened, it starts to sag open, like a half-gape. On (very careful) palpation, the lower jawbone actually is flaccid, like its "rubberized" due to the weakening. I certainly don't mean to alarm you, but I work with exotics vets and we've seen a chameleon with the very symptoms you've discribed: all I saw was a perfectly normal-looking chameleon with its mouth open a little, but the vet at work instantly diagnosed hypo-calcemia, and asked the owner if the chameleon had had any trouble eating, to which was replied, "well yes, actually, her tongue doesn't quite reach as far as it used to, she seems to have to get right up onto the food to catch it." Chronic low blood calcemia levels lead to generalized muscle weakness, ie, a weaker tongue. MBD is insidious, but it is correctable. One of the iguanas my vet treats was denied calcium supplementation for **2.5 years** and hence was a crippled mess but responded favorably and dramatically once treatment for the deficiency was corrected. So not to fret, there is hope if indeed hypo-calcemia is Luna's problem. It may very well be something else. A veterinarian and a hands-on exam would be a better step than this "email diagnosis." Good luck, and keep us informed.

~Kerry in NY
TwinOats@hotmail.com

lele,

I'm sorry to hear about your worries with Luna. I hope everything turns out just fine.

I'm interested in the things you said in your post though, because with the exception of the leaky jaw...it sounds an awful lot like Zoe!!!

Where did you find the info about these things pointing to a vit. A deficiency? Do you know how to increase vit A in a chameleon? I know for humans we get it from carrots, sweet potatoes etc...but what source would a cham get it from?
I understand that if they are overall healthy, and eating crickets that are well gut loaded, that would be thier source. But, I'm curious about a cham like Zoe who doesn't eat crickets.

I'm never sure what percentage of vit. and calcium he actually gets from the repta-aide, and I don't supplement his calcium any more, because I don't want to OD him.

Zoe also SITS when he basks now. He actually will sit back on his haunches. He reminds me of a dog, with the way he sits. He either does that, or kind of lays out, but never really stands, unless he is actually moving.

I'd be very interested in anything you've found out...because as you know Zoe is quite the challenge.

Best of luck to you and little Luna!!
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Kim

He is mine that has never eaten well on his own.
For vitamin A dark green leafy vegetables are great.
Kale, Chollards, Mustard greens
A veiled will usually eat these things.
If you put a piece of kale in his mouth while hand feeding him would he chew and swallow ou spit it out.
How about juicing some in a juicer and adding the liquid or juice to the Repta-Aid as part of the water.
Good luck
Sonia

it did not post and I lost it so I e-mailed it directly.

Sonia emailed me directly and suggested Repta-aid and an MV light. I have the Repta-aid (now need a scale to weigh her) and will get a light. I can't believe she may have the beginnings of MBD! When I first got her I dusted with vitamins once a week and Cal/d3 twice. When she began to cut back on eating I only dusted once a week.

She has been eating so sporadically that there was no real dusting schedule b/c sometimes the crix would get loose in the cage and/or be in the cup long enough where the dust would come off. BUT she had been eating silkies for a few weeks (which I would occasionally dust with vitamins.)

I have Neo-Calglucon - would this be of any immediate help? Can I add it to the Repta-aid?

Kim, re: Repta-aid how exact does the amount/mixing need to be? Sonia said to make it runny at first for hydration – will she still be getting enough of the nutrients? She mentioned in your reply to mash up the kale, etc. into the Repta-Aid - do you do this?

worried,
lele
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

Lele,

when I first started feeding Zoe repta-aide, I did mix it a little on the thin side, in order to get him used to it, and to get him hydrated.
As time has gone on, I now mix it quite thick, as he will drink water on his own now. I also add a drop of electrolize to the repta-aide.
I no longer even measure the powder, I just go by how it looks. But, I would guess that if I was to measure it, I would be using the 12 scoops/6cc of water, on the instruction sheet.

I have not ever added anything else to the repta-aide(other than electrolize)....but perhaps I will give that a shot now as well (adding some of the veggies). I can't get Zoe to show any interest in anything that doesn't come in a syringe.

So far I have dusted his crickets, mealworms and the silkies I tried him on with spirolina, repta-aide, and ground peas. I could force feed him the crickets dusted with repta-aide, also when they were dipped in the mixed repta-aide, and he would eat them, everything else he carries on as though I'm trying to feed a toddler broccoli...retching, and gagging...spitting everything out.

So...we carry on with the repta-aide.
As I'm typing this he is sitting with his face pressed against the front of his enclosure....
that's my que that he's hungry. The thing about it is, he's sitting on top of a container that actually has live mealworms IN it! All he'd have to do is stick his head in the little bowl, and EAT. but nooooooo...he'll sit there staring at me, until I get up and do it. It doesn't seem to matter how many days I let him go without feeding him...he just will NOT do it on his own.
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Kim

Hi Kim,

Thanks for the tips. Interesting about the front of the cage thing...when Luna was in her smaller cage she would do this when she wanted to get out, but now she sits there, up against the screen and if I open the door she makes no motion to get out....I wonder if it means she is ready for water (or food, which of course I have tried.)

I got some watered down N-CG into her last night and will try it and Repta-aid after her "sauna" which she is enjoying right now
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

When Zoe comes to the front of his cage like that, I open the door and talk to him for a couple minutes...usually giving his nose a little rub while we "chat". Then, I leave the door open while I get his food and/or water ready, and he just sits there waiting for me to come back. He never attempts to leave his cage on his own...only if I extend my hand to him, then he will climb out.
If he is deeper in his cage, and I reach in...thats when the hissing, gaping and lunging takes place.
It has to be on HIS terms, or not at all.

He's so funny. I let him THINK I take him seriously...but I'm ususually laughing at him while he's going through his little performance.
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Kim