Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a few questions about the Coast Mtn. Kingsnake, Lampropeltis zonata multifasciata.

1. Is this subspecies one of the ones protected in CA?

2. If this ssps. is not protected, can CA residents collect one or more specimens for their personal collection?

3. Can non-residents collect this ssps...maybe with a license?

Thanks for any help. I know there are CB snakes for sale, but I'm not so sure what you have to have to be able to own them, or if it's legal to to look for them in CA.

Later....TC.

>>I have a few questions about the Coast Mtn. Kingsnake, Lampropeltis zonata multifasciata.
>>
>>1. Is this subspecies one of the ones protected in CA?

This excerpt from the CA Fishing Regs lists the reptile bag and possession limits. It's in PDF format.

"California mountain kingsnake (Lampropeltis zonata), except San Diego mountain kingsnake (Lampropeltis zonata pulchra): Limit: One (1). Special closure: No California mountain kingsnakes shall be taken in Orange and San Diego counties, and in Los Angeles County west of Interstate 5."

Typically, the bag/possession limit for herps is 2, but apparently for zonata it's 1, and I suppose NONE for L.z.pulchra. Not being familiar with the subspecies myself, as long as multifasciata isn't in the Special Closure area, I guess you can get one.

>>3. Can non-residents collect this ssps...maybe with a license?

2-day fishing license is $11.05, resident or nonresident. Must be two consecutive days.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Ok, Chris. Thanks. Now I just need to figure out how it would be legal for me to have two. Considering the fact that some breeders have babies to sell or give away, either there's a way to accumulate two, or folks are breeding these illegally. Maybe CA is just unable to enforce their laws in other states.

BTW, the Coast Mtn. King occurs in the low mtns along the coast of central CA. I first came to admire these beautiful serpents after doing an army stint at the language institute in Monterey and seeing this ssp. at a breeder's house. I hope to be able to keep a pair of these some day.

Regards...TC.

>>>>I have a few questions about the Coast Mtn. Kingsnake, Lampropeltis zonata multifasciata.
>>>>
>>>>1. Is this subspecies one of the ones protected in CA?
>>
>>This excerpt from the CA Fishing Regs lists the reptile bag and possession limits. It's in PDF format.
>>
>>"California mountain kingsnake (Lampropeltis zonata), except San Diego mountain kingsnake (Lampropeltis zonata pulchra): Limit: One (1). Special closure: No California mountain kingsnakes shall be taken in Orange and San Diego counties, and in Los Angeles County west of Interstate 5."
>>
>>Typically, the bag/possession limit for herps is 2, but apparently for zonata it's 1, and I suppose NONE for L.z.pulchra. Not being familiar with the subspecies myself, as long as multifasciata isn't in the Special Closure area, I guess you can get one.
>>
>>>>3. Can non-residents collect this ssps...maybe with a license?
>>
>>2-day fishing license is $11.05, resident or nonresident. Must be two consecutive days.
>>-----
>>Chris McMartin
>>www.mcmartinville.com
>>I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

>>Ok, Chris. Thanks. Now I just need to figure out how it would be legal for me to have two. Considering the fact that some breeders have babies to sell or give away, either there's a way to accumulate two, or folks are breeding these illegally. Maybe CA is just unable to enforce their laws in other states.

How is it legal for anyone to breed Cal Kings outside CA without a CA breeder's permit ($295)? If you want an interesting read, the CA captive propagation regs are here (in PDF form).

I think it's a matter of CA Fish & Game regs not being enforceable outside the state. That'd be like Texas saying someone in Ohio can't keep earless lizards.

I've been going round and round with this issue for the past year, as I have some San Diego banded geckos (Coleonyx variegatus abbotti) which were given to me. I'd like to breed them, but all I have are males. I'm looking to get females given to me, because I think I personally can't "take" them under the auspices of a CA sportfishing license due to the ridiculous bag limit (2; though for certain lizard species up to 25 are permitted).

The geckos aren't rare; however, the subspecies is listed by CA as a "species of special concern" which from a collecting standpoint apparently means nothing (I think they're listed because the species is endemic to CA). On the other hand, if they were listed as "threatened" or "endangered" by the state, and someone in another state turned up with some, I suppose that would be punishable under the Lacey Act perhaps, since unless the person could prove his were captive-bred from existing stock from before the designation as threatened/endangered, the only way he could've gotten them was by illegally taking them from the wild in CA.

I went back and forth with a guy on rec.pets.herp about this a year ago. I challenged the regs as being stupid (based on the 2-gecko bag/possession limit, since they're plentiful) and he got all bent out of shape about it. After a lengthy discussion, he admitted he had helped write those regs back in the 1970s. I had wondered why he was so defensive!

There's also discussion related to anecdotal evidence being used by state Fish and Game Commissions to restrict collecting of herps without scientific basis over on the "other site's" Law and Politics forum.

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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

If you live in CA you can possess one per person in your household, so if you're married you can have two (one for you and one for her). CA's breeding permits are another issue. You will both need to purchase the fishing liscence though (CA is a bargain on that). If you live outside CA you can possess all you want and breed all you want.

RUSS

>>If you live in CA you can possess one per person in your household, so if you're married you can have two (one for you and one for her). CA's breeding permits are another issue. You will both need to purchase the fishing liscence though (CA is a bargain on that). If you live outside CA you can possess all you want and breed all you want.

Is there an authoritative source for that info (as far as nonresidents being able to keep as many as they want)? It seems to make sense intuitively, but I'd like a reference to be 100% above-the-board.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

People residing out of the state of CA can keep and breed as many as they want because CA cannot impose their regulations on people in another state. Unless the other state has regulations that govern this species or ssp. there would be no controls. This ssp. is not listed as an endangered or threatened species so Federal Regulations would not apply either. You will not find confirmation in writing because there is nothing to write. One state cannot impose it's regulations on another. The federal regulations would not cover this species as it is not threatened or endangered; therefore, there are no specific federal guidelines to cover it.
Mountain Kings are an excellent example of why CA's breeding permit regulations are out of date. These animals are easily produced and sold outside of CA yet are illegal to breed here. The cheap commercial availability makes over collecting of wild stocks unnecessary and unlikely.
Also, not only do you need a CA fishing license to collect one, you also need a CURRENT license to keep one. The license would need to be renewed every year as long as you kept the snake. Regulations also make it illegal to release one once you have kept it.
Link

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Moderator note: this link is checked and ok.

Edited on January 1, 2004 at 21:29:23 by phwyvern.

>>People residing out of the state of CA can keep and breed as many as they want because CA cannot impose their regulations on people in another state. Unless the other state has regulations that govern this species or ssp. there would be no controls.

I was just curious of states had such things as reciprocal agreements when it came to wildlife, similar to honoring each other's marriages or concealed-carry permits from one state to the next.

>>Also, not only do you need a CA fishing license to collect one, you also need a CURRENT license to keep one. The license would need to be renewed every year as long as you kept the snake.

How many pet stores tell people they need a license to keep a Cal King in CA? By the letter of the law, this is also true, right?
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris, the fishing license requirement only applies to wild caught CA native snakes that are kept. Captive bred CA native snakes do not require any license or permits to keep, only cash...LOL, but save those reciepts for proof. I fully agree with Rick regarding CA regulations, they are in serious need of updating to reflect the current knowledge, trends, and needs of present day herpetoculture.
Eimon

Captive bred CA native snakes do not require any license or permits to keep, only cash...LOL, but save those reciepts for proof.

I suppose if CA DFG wanted to be real jerks, they could bust people for having Cal Kings, even if they claimed they were captive-bred, if the people didn't keep their receipts, since "law enforcement can't tell the difference between wild-caught and captive-bred," burden of proof notwithstanding.

What if you want to breed them? There are possession limits, and progeny must be given away or sold, according to the Propagation regs.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I can't add anything to that answer, its pretty clear. This is where CA and AZ residents are getting screwed.

RUSS

The Federal Endangered Species Act regulations would not apply. However, if you violated any California laws in collecting any species that California protects, then cross state lines with the animals, the Lacey Act (Federal) may apply.