Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all. First a little intro to me and my uros. Not really new to uros. Have bred maliensis and have kept just about all types of uros available with pretty good success. I have had problems with Morroccans though. About 10 years ago when they first started coming back into the US from the UK I purchased about 30 or so babies and had very good luck raising them to subadult size but the problems started when trying to pair them up. The animals were very skittish to begin with and very agressive to me, biting and tail whipping visciously. I could not pair any up without them trying to kill one another. I finally got so frustrated I just gave up on them. Well about six months ago I got a beautiful pair from John Castellanos that had been raised together since babies and they are somewhat tame but have grown a but skittish. I can hold them without tail whipping and biting but they really try to get away and of late run and hide when I enter the room. I do not socialize that much with them. I have noticed Hugh Holman says acanths are very tame. How much interaction do you have with them in order that they become tame and so they do not bolt everytime someone enters the room? I have really made a commitment to stick with this pair. To me they are the most beautiful of the uros. You all have some very beautiful animals(Hugh, PhilMc and others that have posted). Anyway and help and suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks again Tom Greb

Hello,

In my opinion, acanthinura can become the most tame species but they can also be the least tame. I hold all of my Uromastyx every day, when I am working in the reptile room. I was lucky with my Moroccans as several I bought as adults and were already very tame. The others were younger when I got them and they are tame now because I handled them alot as they were growing up. Even so, there are exceptions. My first Uro was a tiny hatchling Moroccan. I held her alot as she was growing up, and she did get tame-ish for a while, but she is now the most aggressive Uro I keep. Don't ask me why. The key to keeping them tame is to handle them regularly. With any reptile if you leave long gaps in between holding them they will not be as cooperative the next time you go to pick them up. They will then eventually get skittish and not as handable.

Also, they will not be as tame if the temp. isn't quite high enough in the viv. This is because their brains do not function as well and during a time like this they can have a completely different character.

They should calm down if their environment is correct (I am assuming it is as you sound knowledgable about their requirements) and keep handling them regularly.

And yes, Moroccans are the most aggressive species towards each other. Some are pairs are compatable, others are not. One of the reasons they are like this, and other species aren't so much is because the males aren't dominant over the females.

Feel free to ask any other questions.

Sorry about the essay.

Hugh

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7:2 Uromastyx acanthinura nigriventris
1:2 Uromastyx geyri
1:1 Uromastyx hardwicki
1:0 Uromastyx dispar maliensis
1:0 Uromastyx aegypita aegyptia
0:1 Uromastyx aegyptia microlepis

1:1 Sauromalus obesus obesus

2:1 Varanus panoptes panoptes
0:1 Varanus flavirufus ssp.

It funny that you mention the temps not being to par. For about the last month and a half they have been in sort of a semi hibernation. Lights on only 8 hours a day and I am in the Midwest(Michigan) so they ambient temps have been low also since about then. I was just going to let them do their own thing but I think I will warm them back up as I do not think they are old enough to breed yet anyway.
Yes I am somewhat experienced with keeping desert reptiles. I have bred just about every desert reptile native to the US. For the last 10 years I have specialized in chuckwallas producing up to 100 some years. Just resently I hurt my back and as a result cut back on my collection. I got rid of the 20 or so Sauromalus ater(formerly obesus) and some odd and end crotaphytus. I am now strictly working with the island chuckwallas, Sauromalus hispidus(6) and S. varius(8) plus the pair of acanths. Now maybe I can spend more time with the uros.
Where did you obtain your acanths from? At one time I had a few of Terry Thatcher's offspring that I got from Bert Langerwerf. I think the 30 animals I mentioned in the first post were actually probably wild caught and some how passed into the UK and sold into the US as captive born. There were just too many coming into the US to be captive produced. I will try to get some pics up of the uros. Again thanks for your help. Tom Greb

Hi Tom, glad all is fine.

I have to agree with the holding them everyday theory, same as with the chucks or any reptiles. Have to handle them.

I have a large female egyptian had her for years, and a male saharan, nice orange guy, had him about 4 years now. He squirms a bit,when grabbed but is fine once you are holding him.

The egyptian is like having a small dog !
Hope to see you more on the chuckwalla forum,

Eve

Hello,

Glad I could be of some help. All of my acanths are nigriventris and I got them from various people who were selling the animals. They seem to be much easier to get over here (England) than over there. I wish the same could be said for the other species. The UK laws were much stricter than the USAs when Uromastyx were being first shipped in. It is better really because the majority of Uromastyx over here are cb, and there weren't loads taken from the wild

I specialise in Uromastyx, but I also kep a pair of western Chucks. I hope to breed them when they are a bit older.

Hugh
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7:2 Uromastyx acanthinura nigriventris
1:2 Uromastyx geyri
1:1 Uromastyx hardwicki
1:0 Uromastyx dispar maliensis
1:0 Uromastyx aegypita aegyptia
0:1 Uromastyx aegyptia microlepis

1:1 Sauromalus obesus obesus

2:1 Varanus panoptes panoptes
0:1 Varanus flavirufus ssp.

Hey Tom,

I have a Moroccan pair that BJ sent me. I've had them for 2 years. I also have Egyptians, Ornates and a Mali pair that I've had for 5 years now. Out of all of my uros the Moroccans are the least tame but in an odd way. They are skittish if I am near their pen. If I get too close they head for the nearest hide spot. Having said that, They relax when handled. Once in hand they are fine. Most times they will sit on my hand and they don't seem to be zoning out like some reptiles do when they are handled.

I also have never witnessed aggression between the two guys or any aggression between them and any other herps (one of DVL's chuck is an escape artist who scales walls and falls into the Moroccan pen). This may be because they were the runts of BJ's litter. He sent them to me to keep them from more harm. Maybe they both assumed a passive non aggressive role early in life? Dunno.

Sorry for the rant.

John Nicholson

Good to hear from you. How are you and the animals? I just saw your post on the chuck forum. I am completely out of ater(obesus) now. I know Doug Dix, Lindsay Pike and a couple others are now into chucks so they should be producing nice animals. Lindsay and Doug should start having South Mountain redtails available soon as both them guys got a lot of them from me. Talk to ya soon. Tom

Hi Tom,

Nice to see you posting here ... welcome.

Let me say a little about the U. a. nigriventris (moroccan) uromastyx.

Most of my produced cb moroccans offspring are pretty tame and easy to handle. I do have to admit though that there's always a small few in say ... an average dozen size clutch that become shy and would rather run/hide than be caught up and handled. I have yet to produce a biter or tail whacker as far as I know. Could be because most of my breeders are so easy going? I believe you mentioned that you don't socialize much with them. Maybe you've answered your own question ... who knows for sure? Another thing which may be causing them to be somewhat shy could be the change in weather/climate. I've found most of mine that aren't presently brumation are acting similar to yours. Matter of fact, LP mentioned the same about his young pair lately. They'll likely be back to 'business as usual' come spring ... lets hope so.

I have BTW found that most of my adults and juvie U. a. nigriventris (werneri) are more often than not quite flighty and skiddish. Some of those that don't run or hide are either somewhat tame or else would rather hiss, snake wiggle and may even try tail whip you if given the chance. For example, my female werneri are either sort of nice or down right nasty. My males are similar with the exception of one recently acquired male breeding prospect whose quite the puppy dog.

BTW Tom, your 2002 pair are half siblings to Phil Mc's 2000 nice male. Although I used different males with that particular yellow female, both males were quite similar in color, temperament etc.

Here's a pic of one of those 2002 moroccan offspring I'll likely keep as a breeder. He's an unusual creamy cheese color with some nice banding/reticulation on his back which appears to be turning yellow. He also displays some blue pigmentation on his shoulders and around the neck area (hard to see in pic though). I just happen to have an unrelated adult female with similar blue pigments so they'll likely be paired up in 2004? or 2005.

John

You and Hugh are probably right. I have downsized considerably on my collection so now maybe I can spend more time with them. If you come accross any subs or adults that are realy tame and of exceptional color you want to pass up on send them my way. Anyway Merry Christmas and Happy New Year John! The color the animals I got from you are outstanding. Tom

I've noticed quite a change in my young egyptian since moving over to a soil substrate. He honestly seems completely "wild" now. He has dug his own very long burrow right underneath his basking rock and whenever my hand comes near his tank he is under it in an instant. He is only 60 grams however so it may just be his young age that makes him so instinctively flighty. If you recently decided to switch over to a burrowable substrate it may have caused more instinctual behavior. Has anyone else noticed this?

Peter

As a matter of fact the cages are very generic. I was using seed as a substrate with pvc for hides. I have had very good luck with the pcv hides but do not like the seed. I just switched over to playsand with flagstone for basking areas and hides. I definately like a more natural look but dirt is out of the question as this is in the main part of the house and it is just too dusty. I really have not noticed any difference in any lizard I have kept using a natural or generic setup. If anything maybe a little less skittish using a natural setup as I think it makes them feel more secure. Other things I have noticed are that aquriums make a very poor cage unless 3 sides are covered. The openness just makes them spas out. Also I have really noticed with chuckwallas is that when you move them to a new cage or change their cage around they freak out also. After doing this I have had some chucks take as long as 2-3 months to acclimate to their new surroundings. When I got my San Esteban Island chuckwallas from the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum they did not touch food for the first 3 months I had them. I really think that most lizards are creatures of habit and when you take them out of surroundings that they are used to it is really stressful for them. Tom

I have noticed this about cage changing as well. The strange thing is, I did not notice it with my young egyptian. He was a poor grower, I have had him since he was 7 grams, he grew to 25 and just stayed there for months. The day I moved him into the soil substrate he burrowed his own, very extensive burrow and now eats like a maniac. He has gone from 25 grams to 60 in a few weeks. Like I said in the previous post, he seems like he is in a perfectly natural environment now and has very wild behavior because of it. He's really fascinating to watch but sure is a pain to catch. Hope all goes well with your Morroccans.

Peter

hey Peter, i can't see your animals in person, obviously, but i can speculate : )

i think the behavior is more tied to stress levels and cage potentials. in a poor setup, where the animals clearly DON'T thrive, the animals are carrying such a high stress load that they can't act "natural". when you give them more tools to live a more appropriate life, stress levels drop, and their natural behavior is able to show itself.

for example, in a poor setup, with poor hidespots, the animals often "give up hope" of getting away from your predatory (in their eyes) paws. they live in such a state of shock and there is nowhere they recognize as a suitable retreat.

the same animal, when given a better setup and burrow, recognizes that as safety and security, and finally has something to flee to, a natural instinct. in a way, folks are "medicating" and "sedating" their animals unknowningly, with improper setups.

along the same lines, low temps will also shut down an animal's system and reactions. hence the "tame" Nile monitor in the aggressively poor pet store setup, that is an absolute nightmare once setup at home, with proper basking temps and heat gradient...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles