Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all help people. I have a cranwelli in a 10 gallon enclosure, but he seems to be particularly susceptible (sp?) to redleg.

The substrate I use is one brick of Bed-A-Beast (about 2.5 inches deep), and I have an incandesant light and florescent screw-in, also a uvb suspended a little above the tank. My frog first had redleg about 2 months ago and I treated him in water with Super Sulfa (aquarium fungal remover) and he got better (I also made more of an effort to remove all feces as soon as I see them and change the substrate more frequently). However he had it again about 3 weeks later (even after I had changed the substrate the first time he got it). So I said, "ok, I need to start scooping out the substrate he sits in every few days, just the substrate around him). So I cured him with the Super Sulfa again and he was fine.

Now he has it again. This is annoying because I have been scooping out all the substrate around my pac every 3 days because he doesn't change position often and I also had just replaced the substrate 3 weeks ago. Other than the redleg, he seems great - he jumps, has a huge appetite, puts on weight, the usual.

Guess my question is this - Should I just focus on changing my substrate more often (or at least rinsing it out every week), or maybe could the humidity have been to high?

Temp is around 75-80 degrees at day and drops to 72 at night. Humidity is about 70-80. Thanks for any help!
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They have the internet on computers now? - Homer S.

I think that you are totally confused about red leg. It is an infection by a bacteria that is usually caused by poor husbandry including suboptimal temperatures, nutrition and uncleaned conditions. The common name is very misleading, because now it is associated with almost any generalized bacterial infection that causes redness of the legs.

Some of the symptoms of true red leg, attributed to the bacterium Aeromonas hydrophila, include ulcerations, hemorrhages, massive swelling, and most importantly, a lack of appetite. Your frog does not seem to be exhibiting any of these classic symptoms, except for maybe the reddening of the legs. In most cases this is completely normal especially in soft skinned frogs like Pacmans.

It is extremely necessary for me to point out some of the wrong things you have done. First, you decided on a course of treatment without having a proper diagnosis. This caused you to use something that is completely inappropriate for the treatment of this condition, even if it did have it. The fungal treatment has absolutely no effect on this condition, and any improvement you saw was coincidental. Both of these actions are classic examples of the overuse of drugs that have led directly to the resistance of bacteria we see in humans.

Since Aeromonas hydrophila is ubiquitous in aquatic environments, special attention should be given to the water dishes or water features of a frog's container. Ideally, they should be disinfected thoroughly every time the water is changed (I prefer Nolvasan).

Since I have specified the wrong course of treatment for this condition, the proper course of treatment would be to take it to the veterinarian, have the specific bacteria cultured and identified, and the appropriate antibiotic applied. Rarely, I repeat RARELY does any drug you can buy from a pet store have any beneficial effect on the amphibians or reptiles you keep it home.

Do not take any the criticism in this post personally, this is also intended to benefit other users of this forum. Below is a link to a previous discussion about this condition.
click here for the link

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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Colchicine wrote "First, you decided on a course of treatment without having a proper diagnosis. This caused you to use something that is completely inappropriate for the treatment of this condition, even if it did have it. The fungal treatment has absolutely no effect on this condition, and any improvement you saw was coincidental. Both of these actions are classic examples of the overuse of drugs that have led directly to the resistance of bacteria we see in humans."

Hallaluah and Amen!!
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Stacey

Well thanks for the info Colchcine, but I was perhaps a bit vague in my diagnosis and treatment.

I work at an exotic fish and reptile store, and my manager who has worked with reptiles and fish for 15 years said it was red-leg (not saying he couldn't have been wrong, but he has been in the field for quite some time). Also the Super Sulfa he recommended is also an anti-bacterial, so this is why I believed it worked.

My frog actually does not enjoy a water bowl at all, I had one in there for the first month, but he never used it and actually avoided it (guess he is hydrophobic). Perhaps it was a mis-diagnosis, but it seemed accurate to me.
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They have the internet on computers now? - Homer S.

Apparently you missed the entire paragraph and the symptoms...
"Some of the symptoms of true red leg, attributed to the bacterium Aeromonas hydrophila, include ulcerations, hemorrhages, massive swelling, and most importantly, a lack of appetite. Your frog does not seem to be exhibiting any of these classic symptoms, except for maybe the reddening of the legs. In most cases this is completely normal especially in soft skinned frogs like Pacmans."

You said...
" Other than the redleg, he seems great - he jumps, has a huge appetite, puts on weight, the usual." "Perhaps it was a mis-diagnosis, but it seemed accurate to me."

Those two things are not consistent with each other. And if you had read the link, you have seen than legs that are red in color is NOT the way to diagnosis this condition!

The only course of treatment mentioned in the Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry book is to administer broad spectrum antibiotics. Sulfa drugs from a pet store were not mentioned for a reason.

Let's wrap things up. In the absence of any other symptoms, your frog is fine.

PS- Credibility of pet store people with me = 0. Statements like the one you made only solidifies my opinion. (I had to point out a deathly starved leopard gecko to the pet store employees yesterday) I have met people who have been herpin for 30 yrs who didn't know what the heck they were talking about.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Any idea what green leg might be? My albino pacman frog (baby, about 2 inches long) has green leg on his right leg. Was like this in the petstore. He ate 4 crickets about a week ago, and ever since has not eaten, is always buried under the bed a beast, the only way I ever see him is if I move the bedabeast to get to him.

Have to agree on the local petstores by the way - considering I got a 5 gallon starter tank and was looking at oscars (the fish that get 1 foot long on average) and the guy said "Sure you can keep an oscar in the 5 gallon, but in the future I'd recommend a 20 gallon." (I recently learned the minumum recommenadtion for an oscar is a 55 gallon.)
I ended up having to bring the oscar back (after getting a little attached seeing how I could hand feed him, was almost like a little dog, even let me pet him!) after a week.

For an actual adult oscar, 55's are a little cramped. They're only a foot long, the fish is a foot long, no one's happy.
Petting fish is bad for 'em, hurts their slime coat. Just thought you should know.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

do need a bigger tank than a 55! I have our two in there; last year when we got them, they were about three inches long each. Now they are near ten inches! We are setting up a nice big 125-gal tank now for them; my boyfriend is almost done building the stand for it, and it'll be setup by friday. I would say, 125 minimum for two oscars.
Also, I would NEVER pet our oscars! I have gotten bitten by one of ours while feeding, and it hurt... !
Here's a pic of our Old Evil Eye; he was given to us for free by a pet store, which had him in cramped quarters and thus he had popeye. We quarantined him, and he is fine now, but completely blind.

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*~Ginevive~*

n/p
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1.2.1 Leopard Geks
1.0.1 High Yellow, 0.1 Blizzard, 0.1 Normal
2 White's Treefrogs
2.1 Fire Bellied Toads
0.0.2 Red Eared Sliders
Fish:
0.2 Parrot Cichlids
1 Upside Down Catfish
0.0.2 Bullhead Catfish
1 Geophagus jurupari
1 Fire Barb
0.0.4 Blue Gouramis
Goldfish

Herpin since 93'

No, he means "You're a poet and didn't even know it"

You're= you are
Your= posessive

I hope you weren't trying to correct him.
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We all know our pets will eat us if we were small enough.

"The fungal treatment has absolutely no effect on this condition, and any improvement you saw was coincidental. Both of these actions are classic examples of the overuse of drugs that have led directly to the resistance of bacteria we see in humans. "

There is no correlation between the thesis and its supposed support here.

How has his misuse of a fungal medication worsened the case for humans combating bacteria?

I think this thread has succeeded only in once again scaring off other good-intentioned (if misinformed) users.

I agree that this guy was misguided but this tone makes this a less than useful place.

Thanks for the back-up bloomindaedalus, I see your point. I believe that Colchicine was not bad-intentioned, but she/he did come off a bit harsh. The advice was appreciated under and circumstance.

The biggest offender of what you were speaking of is snakeguy88, one of those people who gathers knowledge just to make people wrong you know?

One of the most irritating people I have ever dealt with online.

PS I would also like to add that while it most likely was not redleg, the fact that the redness has disappeared after treating with sulfa does not rule out the fact that it could have been another irritant (fungal or bacterial). I could have in fact been successfully treating something else.
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They have the internet on computers now? - Homer S.

I do not want to come off as harsh, but plainly, Snakeguy and Colchicine are the most educated people on this board. They donate their time and energy to helping newbies, and then people have to disrespect them. Sad. I thank you guys for all the help you have given me. Kudos to those who help.
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*~Ginevive~*

Snakeguy and Colchicine are the most educated

do you mean here at the frog forum?

or among all KS forum users?

It doesn't take too much thought to see the far reaching effects of the overuse of drugs, no matter what the actual intended organism is. In the same way that a fungicide was used to treat a bacterial condition, people demand antibiotics to treat a virus. Hence a blatant misuse of drugs and the subsequent bacteria resistance.

Scaring people is not ever my intention. But let's not forget a few simple things here, I don't get paid for doing this, and I used a resource for my reply that cost me $125 and I get no compensation other than the personal satisfaction of educating someone and the others on this forum. Don't overlook the simple fact that YOU didn't reply to his post and provide any advice on treatment of the frog's condition. Please do not complain about how the information was delivered until you start producing posts with useful information. At least it was made available and tailor made to his situation.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

"Don't overlook the simple fact that YOU didn't reply to his post and provide any advice on treatment of the frog's condition. Please do not complain about how the information was delivered until you start producing posts with useful information. At least it was made available and tailor made to his situation."

look around a little.

and i don't think i ever complained (bragged) that i read a book. You make afool of yourself if you try to be a martyr on a volunteer basis.

"In the same way that a fungicide was used to treat a bacterial condition, people demand antibiotics to treat a virus. Hence a blatant misuse of drugs and the subsequent bacteria resistance. "

again your conclusion doesn't follow from your previous statements.

Okay so i have re-read everything and decided not to be a jerk. I apologize for my unsolicted comments. (no i was not prompted to do so by a KS moderator).

I still stand by my statement that your argument is iilogical (though i agree with the crux of your idea) and that you were pretty harsh to this guy who was legitimately asking for help.
I think its sad the reputation that these forums have gotten and the rudeness and smugness of those who do have valuable information to share is one of the principal reasons for said reputation.

I think if you bother to volunteer to help people, you should do so without being antagonostic if possible.
In this regard i stand as a hypocrite. I did NOT help the guy. I only berated your attempt to help him. as it happens i totally agree with your assessment but i don't think discrediting his opinion becauise a pet store guy helped him does anything but decrease the circle of the knowledgeable and seperate you (us) from the rest of the world. As this happens we exist (in the message board manifestation of out lives, anyway) only to serve our own egos. I too have been guilty of this. I share many of the popular "educated" opinions about who knows what about husbandry and other animal-related issues but to promulgate the idea that "all pet store owners are idiots" doesn't help. I don't claim that you are soley responsible for this pernicious conception, nor do i claim it ot be the root of all evil but i do contend that power must be wielded with grace. Without this, no aims that promote any community are ever achieved.

Please accept my apology for butting into your conversation.

People in general do not take drugs very seriously. In this case, I took it very seriously his course of action. Not only did he not decide on the treatment without a proper diagnosis, he wound up using a completely inappropriate drug, and it is very obvious that he did not do enough research on the condition to fully understand it. My tone certainly would not have been as harsh if it weren't something that could have easily killed his frog, or make it suffer, or make it even worse for the frog. My concern lies entirely with the frog in question, if the posters feelings are hurt in the process of saving the frog from an unnecessary treatment, then so be it. In this case, there was a lot to be critical of and I was. Where I deserve some credit, is that I delivered the information in a completely professional way. I did not write down what I was really thinking, after all!

I did not discredit his opinion because it came from a pet store, I did it because it was entirely wrong, and I did not help that it came from a pet store. If he is going to come back to me and tell me I am wrong because a guy at the pet store says something different ,THEN you are going to hear the "all pet store employees are idiots " from me.

Despite the method of delivery by myself and markc in the past, people still show up to this forum, and people still stick around so that they can learn more (I think of ellasmommie who has stuck around to be a contributing regular of this forum). I simply have not seen evidence of your claim that our rudeness drives people away from this forum or from the hobby.

And don't think that only harsh criticism comes from me, I congratulate people all the time for doing the right thing. For instance, somebody on the health forum was looking for a vet since he just got a ball python. I can't ask for anything better than when people try to make contacts BEFORE an animal gets sick.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

"My concern lies entirely with the frog in question, if the posters feelings are hurt in the process of saving the frog from an unnecessary treatment, then so be it."

this is exactly the point. Its possible to correct, even strongly, without making people fearful.

if you want evidence of the people leaving KS....read any other herp forum! Ther eis more KS bashing on some than there is discussion of animals. for more direct evidence look at the low attendance of soem of the turtle forums and compare that to numbers earlier. anyway i just wish we could find better methods to help people than be rating them.
You are FAR from the worst offenders here anyway.

If redleg is caused by bacteria, why would you use an antifungal medication against it?
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*~Ginevive~*

It is anti-bacterial and anti-fungal. Actually ginevive you are one of the kindest people I have met on this forum, just that towards me snakeguy88 is very hostile. He may just have a problem with something I am doing (dunno what, asking questions I guess), but if you check back several pages you can see for yourself.

You actually answered several of my horned frog feeding questions very well, and I appreciate you doing so.

Also I would like to add that I did appreciate Colchicine's info, he/she seems very educated indeed. Can someone clear up whether Colchicine is a man or a woman for me? Guess the reason I don't know is cause I do not know what that word means.

*heads to dictionary.com*
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They have the internet on computers now? - Homer S.

Hehe...interesting name, indeed.

I think colchicine is a compound used to stop mitosis. In the lab I work at, we use colcemid solution to arrest cells in metaphase so we can stain the chromosomes and analyze them. I think they also use colchicine to treat gout or something.

Just some random info. =P

Johnny

I know Ceelykine's gender, but I'm not sure if he/she/it jealously guards her/his/its secrets.... So I'll let it answer for itself.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

Ha ha, once again you have made me laugh out loud!

I really don't see why it matters anyway.

Colchicine = he
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Hmmm... if only I got paid for being witty
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

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Stacey

Also, I was thanking Colchicine for stating that the overuse of drugs for inappropriate conditions is what has lead the the problem of resistance that we have in human medicine and can experience in veterinary medicine if we are not careful. Pet stores and online sources that sell antibiotics that should be available only by prescription are big offenders ,as are veterinarians that prescribe antibiotics prophylatically without a proper diagnosis. I certainly did not intend to "scare" anyone away and it does not sound like the individual that was asking the question was as fragile as that. Especially because the comment was about a greater issue than his frog's illness or subsequent treatment.

To clear a few things up:

1. "Super Sulfa" is, according to the manufacturers Aquatronics, "a blend of four sulfa powders: Sulfamethazine, Sulfamerazine, Sulfadiazine, Sulfathiazole, and Sodium Lauryl Sulfate." And although it is lableled by the manufactureeras a broad spectrum antibiotic and anti-fungal all of the active ingredients (Except for the sodium lauryl sulfate which is a sufractant. A sufractant facilitates the dispersal of the drug in the aquarium water) are potentiated sulfa drugs which are bacteriocidal (kills bacteria).

2. Colchicine is in fact an antimitiotic. It stops mitosis by inhibiting spindle (the microtubules that pull the chromosomes apart) formation thereby stopping cell division. It is also used as a therapeutic in gout patients by acting as an antiinflamatory, helping to prevent or reduce the pain associated with gout.
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Stacey

>>Also, I was thanking Colchicine for stating that the overuse of drugs for inappropriate conditions is what has lead the the problem of resistance that we have in human medicine and can experience in veterinary medicine if we are not careful. Pet stores and online sources that sell antibiotics that should be available only by prescription are big offenders ,as are veterinarians that prescribe antibiotics prophylatically without a proper diagnosis. I certainly did not intend to "scare" anyone away and it does not sound like the individual that was asking the question was as fragile as that. Especially because the comment was about a greater issue than his frog's illness or subsequent treatment.
>>
>> To clear a few things up:
>>
>>1. "Super Sulfa" is, according to the manufacturers Aquatronics, "a blend of four sulfa powders: Sulfamethazine, Sulfamerazine, Sulfadiazine, Sulfathiazole, and Sodium Lauryl Sulfate." And although it is lableled by the manufactureeras a broad spectrum antibiotic and anti-fungal all of the active ingredients (Except for the sodium lauryl sulfate which is a sufractant. A sufractant facilitates the dispersal of the drug in the aquarium water) are potentiated sulfa drugs which are bacteriocidal (kills bacteria).
>>
>>2. Colchicine is in fact an antimitiotic. It stops mitosis by inhibiting spindle (the microtubules that pull the chromosomes apart) formation thereby stopping cell division. It is also used as a therapeutic in gout patients by acting as an antiinflamatory, helping to prevent or reduce the pain associated with gout.
>>-----
>>Stacey
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

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Stacey