Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In the past now and again photos of the so - called jungle boas were posted here. Many of these specimens looked so similar to "normal boas" that I already asked myself where the big deal in these animals should be.

As a matter of fact most of them look so close to normal crossbreed boas with slight aberrancies that occour in almost every litter that I ask myself where the normal crossbreed ends and the jungle boa begins. In my litter of true surinam redtails I have some animals with a similar aberrant pattern (zig-zag stripes, inherited from the wildcaught grandfather). Shall I call them jungle surinams now?

You all know that I am not fond of morphs, but I understand that some people are willing to pay money for albinos, snows, three-tone boas, hypos, anerythristic boas and so on. Here the "morph" is clearly visibly. One is looking to a really different boa. But the jungle boas... No sir, one needs a double take to see something slightly special in it, if at all.

The reason why I write this now is that I informed myself as to the prices of morphs. Looking at the current market price for jungle boas I can not abstain to state that these boas should be renamed as "trap-for-fools-boas".

It's none of my business and since I have no marketing interests in the U.S. I don't really care. But exactly this fact gives me the possibility to say something aloud what the one or the other of you is maybe thinking also.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

It is well known that you have no love of morphs, however many of us do. It is a slap in the face of anyone working with jungles for you to insinuate that they are just 'normal' boas. Yes, many litters can show a few abnormal saddles...that doesn't make them jungles. It's when those abnormal saddles cover a large portion of the boa and prove heriditary that changes the definition. I personally have a juvenile showing a partial jungle pattern (roughly 1/3 to 1/2 her length) that I'm hoping to prove out when she's grown. She was produced by my best friend last year in a litter that also contained a partial reverse stripe and several other boas showing jungle-like patterning, though to a lesser degree than my girl. Does it mean we work any less than you to produce our litters? No, it doesn't. If others like us like these abnormal patterns, why not refine them by selective breeding to bring out more of the trait. It's no different than breeding for color or pattern in any other boa...the pattern just happens to be considerably different than the norm, your opinion not-with-standing.

Raven

I often made the experience here that the TRUTH or a divergent opinion is regarded as an insult.
Maybe the dictionaries for the English language should be rewritten in replacing the word TRUTH by INSULT.

I have seen a lot of so-called jungle boas (does this good sounding name costs the money?) here that had only a slight aberrant pattern.

The same applies for "square-tail" boas, by the way.

I have really a hard time here. I just wanted to discuss morphs with you without mentioning true locality boas and now you are going to rough me up. Poor Hermann just wanted to discuss what's a neat morph and what's a fool trap. Maybe I should stick to discussing true locality boas?

OK, I surrender. I was wrong. Someone who spends a lot of money on colombian crosses with a slight aberrant pattern and normal color is a genius.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

If it's a TRUTH then it's not an INSULT. However, if it's a divergent opinion without research or backup detail, then it could be an insult. For instance, it would be an insult that I say the earth is flat. It looked flat from where I stand, but it's definitely not flat. You just remind me of a story I read when I was young about a frog, who was stuck on the bottom of the well. He heard the birds, the rabbits, and other animals talked about how big and how nice the sky was. He was curious, and planned to have a trip. However, when he looked up, he changed his mind, because he said, "The sky is just as big as my well."
If you really want to discuss about morph without locality, then just drop the word "crossbreed" out. Then, we can discuss about MORPH.
What's a manipulated!

the "TRUTH" is that true jungle boas are a pattern morph...period. Are all boas that are advertised as jungle boas truly jungle boas? I doubt it. Just like with many other morphs, there are those that will attempt to fool the buyer with an animal that is not what it is being represented to be. You didn't come across as wanting to discuss a new morph, you implied that anyone selling jungle boas was ripping off consumers with a 'normal' boa. Which, by the way, is still a slap in the face to those working with true jungle boas.

Raven

You are definitely ignorant if you're attacking the "jungle" boa with minor abnormalities. If you knew anything about these boas, you'd know that a real jungle, even if near "normal" looking, when bred a true normal, can still produce very aberrant jungles. If you did your research, you'd know that the jungle that rich used to produce his awesome hypo jungles was QUITE normal looking. That same "normal" looking jungle, when bred to another jungle can produce what is referred to as a "Super Jungle".
A Super Jungle is the extreme example of the Jungle....basically what everyone is working very hard to accomplish.

I just feel like you really have nothing better to do than to post your negative garbage on this forum about what you think is acceptable and what is morally correct. I'm glad most people don't give a hoot what you say about morphs, even though there are a few that do agree with you....however, you're the only one that seems to keep posting the same negative garbage over and over to get a rise out of people. I guess I'm not really mad about that, I'm more sympathetic, at knowing that you probably really don't have anything better to do than to post your non-sense.

I must say that I have payed attention to the Jungle Morphs available on the market over the last few years. (Mainly because the one pictured in the Boa Constrictor Manual is extremely striking in appearance in my opinion) but I do not see how alot of the jungles out there can be called or considered Jungle, I have asked the ? many times as how an ordinary boa in appearance can be called a jungle, but never get an answer...Maybe someone will read you post and explain how an ordinary looking snake can be called a jungle, and why it is worth its price tag. (I think the jungles that look like the one I mentioned are definately worth the price tag, but not normal looking ones)

Later Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

What was originally called a jungle boa has now been shown by breeding to be a super jungle boa. What were thought to be het for jungle boas are actually jungles. It was a mistake originally by assumint that the Jungle was recesive. I do agree that their are some people misrepresenting normals as jungles so buyer beware.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I was wondering why an animal as stunning as the original was being bred then the "drab" offspring were being sold as jungles, with no clear and obvious similarity in appearance...Thanks again....Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

You should really do your homework Herman. Statements like this clearly demonstrate that you speak too soon. There are several additional characteristics outside of abberancies that distinguish the Jungle trait from normal boa's.

Research it!

Thanks
JB

it is absolutely gorgeous

>>it is absolutely gorgeous
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"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"

With exception to the most obvious examples of this trait, i.e. as someone else here mentioned, the animal produced by Rich Ihle is well worth the high price tag. But most often what I have seen are normal looking columbians with slight abberencies in their pattern.
There may be another side that I'm not seeing so anyone with additional info please chime in!!

And this is a very good discussion topic...IMO

Philip Niforatos

First it was the Hypomelanistic...
Now it is the Jungle....
What will be next? Arabesque or Motley???
Well, let's say so far you (Herman) just see the so-call jungle looking (abberant pattern or what so ever...) There's someone who misrepresent their animals, or some wannabe jungle. However, Jungle is a proven trait, and you shouldn't use those jungle looking boas to put down a trait that is proven by some hard-work breeder and honored by the herp community. If you do it, it would be the same like people using Hitler to judge all Germanies. Another example is a morph of ball python called Pastel Jungle. It was a proven trait. However, there's someone with high gold, high yellow, blushing looking balls described their animals as pastels, and that's mislead, misrepresent, scam... The problem with you is not because you don't like morph. The problem is that you don't except the fact that you cannot judge a boa (morph or locality) by its look. They have their own character or trait. Have anyone told you that "You can't judge a book by it cover?"
Proven morph comes from trustworthy breeder. Locality comes from importer. It doesn't matter if you are interested in the U.S. market or not.
Look at the picture below. It's a F3 Hypo from Jeff Gee line. It may look like your BS (boa sabogae), but it's not a BS. It's a trait, a morph, a hard-work by a well-known, respectfully breeder, not someone who needs attention and ought to be spanked

you introduce a very good topic...and other times, you post messages that are simply...can't even think of a word...lol...maybe irritating? The reason why jungles are so "hyped" is because the jungle trait is a codominant inheritable mutation! Many other "jungles" only look that way...they're not necessarily inheritable. That's why the jungle morph is worth so much money. I myself have seen truly georgeous jungles that stand out. I also have seen "blah" jungles. But the point is, the trait is clearly inheritable. That is why it is considered a morph.

Herman I am shocked by your post. Not by the usual attempt to get a rise with a contorversial statement aimed solely at generating a response. By the way, I think your are interested in a US market and that is the reason for these weekly posts.

What is amazing is what you said about your Surinams. How is breeding a wild caught aberrant animal into a normal surinam consistent with everything you say you believe in? Why would you have even bought an aberrant wild caught animal in the first place given your stance on variations from normal genetics? Were your normal surinam males not breeding so you decided to use the genetically aberrant animal (Sounds familiar doesn't it)? Clearly according to the arguements you have repeatedly used against intergrades you have wasted several breeding seasons with normal females by using this aberrant male. Now that you have proven that his aberrant pattern is genetic what are you going to do? Surely you cannot ever breed that male again since he will only spread those aberrant genes and waste potentially good breeding seasons for normal females. You obviously cannot sell it because then you would be directly contributing to the weakening of the normal surinam genetics by releasing this proven aberrant animal into the pool of available breeder surinams. The only choice left is to keep it as a pet. But what of the 2 generations of babies you produced with this genetically unsound animal? You didn't say what the genetics of the aberrant trait was but if it is recessive then all of the first generation were hets and if co-dominant than half of the babies would have the trait. Please tell us that you didn't sell any normal looking babies that you knowingly produced from an aberrant male without knowing whether the aberrant appearance is genetic or not? Also can you show us the adds for those babies , if you sold any, that stated that these animals were produced by an aberrant male and may be genetically impure. What are you going to do with the current babies that prove the aberrant trait is genetic? Obviously you cannot sell any of these animals because then you would directly contributing to destroying normal appearing Surinams in captivity.

The question is why did you do it Herman? Why did you intentionally go directly against everything you say you stand for and use this male to waste several good normal females' breeding seasons and create genetically impure animals? These animals could be used in intergrade projects but that would also be against everyting you say you stand for? Are you trying to open a US market for the gentically impure surinams you have produced Herman? Please explain because this shocking admission by you makes me wonder what can be trusted in the world anymore.

Bill Kirby

Please Hermann, let us know what's up in your mind????

would you like Hermann to line breed them for years to enhance the trait? I know breed son to mother or granddaughter to grandfather! No need to label them hets or jungles..it's just part of the game.. it happends .. a suri is a suri is a suri
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"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"

Surely you know by now that I am for crosses, hybrids etc.

The WHOLE POINT was that Herman has repeatedly made posts about genetically impure animals being bad and now he has admitted that he has systematically done exactly what he states he is against. He owned albinos but said he sold them. Now he has admitted to intentionally breeding aberrant animals. I don't care if Herman breeds them to ANY of his other boas or pythons. What I care about is that he be consistent. If he wants to criticize others and question their morals, ethics etc he has to be consistent and not do the VERY SAME THINGS that he attacks others for. I hope my point is clear.
Bill Kirby

it really aint that serious.. they are just snakes.. let's have fun with them. Hermann will always argue, it aint worth the 3 paragraphs.
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"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"

I think they were 3 nicely constructed paragraphs and I had fun writing them.

I agree they are snakes and nothing in this field would make me happier than if people would just respect the different opinions that people have and enjoy the hobby.
Bill

>>I think they were 3 nicely constructed paragraphs and I had fun writing them.
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>>I agree they are snakes and nothing in this field would make me happier than if people would just respect the different opinions that people have and enjoy the hobby.
>>Bill
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"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"

It's always a problem if one has to waste time on persons who don't read a posting thoroughly.
The grandfather of my surinam boas has had an aberrant pattern.
Did I write it was my animal? No. Did I write I breed with him? No.

As a matter of fact the dear grandpa wasn't even in my possession (Karl Gürtner has been the owner). The offspring looked normal and I bought a couple from this litter.

I bred the male of this litter to a non related female. And some of the babies are partially striped now. Maybe inherited from grandpa, maybe not.
I don't care because as CE correctly mentioned nobody can expect a pattern that looks perfect like a car out of the factory.
But to jump on some stripes and create a new morph out of it (hyper-super-gorilla-jungle surinam boas) is the point that make the thing foolish in my eyes (not for the bright guy who make money out of it, but for the others that fall for such a nonsense).

So please read my postings thoroughly in the future before you start to slaver.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

But to jump on some stripes and create a new morph out of it (hyper-super-gorilla-jungle surinam boas) is the point that make the thing foolish in my eyes (not for the bright guy who make money out of it, but for the others that fall for such a nonsense).

Morph was either created by mother nature or through several generation proven breeding. Only Wanabe jump on some stripes and create new morph out of it. It's a free country, so people create whatever they want and people pay whatever price they want, for whatever thing they want. If you want to call your Suris Jungle, Stripe, Godzilla, Zebra, or whatever name, feel free. Just jump on their stripe and create a new morph out of it. However, don't just jump down someone hardwork and try to destroy it.

You all know that I am not fond of morphs, but I understand that some people are willing to pay money for albinos, snows, three-tone boas, hypos, anerythristic boas and so on. Here the "morph" is clearly visibly. One is looking to a really different boa. But the jungle boas... No sir, one needs a double take to see something slightly special in it, if at all.
You think you understand, but indeed you are so CLUELESS. People paid high price for those animal not because of their look, but because of they are rare, of their genetic. For instance, Anerythristic is not as expensive as Hypo or Albino, because sometime, you can get an Anery out of breeding two regular boas. You can't get it w/ Albino or Hypo. A nice Surinames (stripe, reverse stripe, abberant patterns, etc...) will cost higher than a normal looking Surinames, but no one willing to pay a high rocket price like $25,000.00 for it, because they know they can get one from imported, or create one by fluctuate the temperature. Can you do it with Snow or Sunglow? It's the same with Jungle. It's proven through out breeding that the trait is inhieret (sp?) So, if you are strongly believe that your Suris carry the gene, make a name out of it, set a price, and place your genetic guarantee on them. We are more than welcome to see you go from locality into morph. However, if those babies don't produce any offspring that look like the trait you claim, you are in big trouble, big-deep trouble. On the other side, if you are not certain on how their offspring look, but want to jump on their stripe and create some morph out of it, be my guest! Just stop attacking others.

point....
Everyone that is after Jungles, and paying the big bucks, has seen the proven end result, and knows exactly what they are doing. So you posting your uneducated opinion, may only be deterring those that are also uneducated to the proven jungle morph, but it's only a matter of time when more and more impressive examples will be born to draw the attention of everyone...and you'll be left in the cold, alone, with your negative attitude. Besides, this isn't even a "crossbreed", so what's your problem.
Go talk your talk on the ball forum where there is something that deserves to be talked about....all the people that import CH babies that have an extra line, or a little color, or a minor blemish and are called a new morph....now THAT's topic that I'm all for. Classifieds are full of BS Balls that are nothing but normals.

kinda like "Female Full Heart Patern Red Tail".....or "Reverse Pied boa"......and my favorite "Speckled Belly Boa"....lol!!

your post is really thought out and intelligent.

thanks for your input.

I guess you are going to tell me to go back to the ball forum also? Because you don't like what I have to say?

sure there are a lot of "crap" balls in the ads.....some in the boa ads too...

"You aren't all that and a bag of potato chips"

You know, I don't especially like jungles, but your post is pretty insulting and (seemingly) ill-informed.

Jungles have been proven as a co-dominant trait. That's what distinguishes them from aberrant normals. Heterozygous jungles (regular jungles) may not always be visibly different from an aberrant normal, and there may be the potential for scamming (such as with many of the ball python morphs), and if you'd stopped there, I'd agree with you. However, the homozygous (super jungle) animals are clearly a visible morph. There's no doubt that the mutation is proven.

Is it possible to be rooked into buying a non-jungle as a jungle? I'd say it's a little less likely than being rooked into buying a locality animal that's not really a locality animal. Your own specialty has more room for deceit than this, so your post has a lot of the sound of the pot calling the kettle black.

Ya gotta love America Hermann! LOL Our Constitution guarantees us the freedom of speech, but not an audience! In the land of morphs and mutts your voice is lost in the wind.

Though I agree in part with what you say (prices for some morphs are ridiculous, and for what, IMHO ,are not always attractive snakes) the fact remains that people will continue to breed and refine morphs as long as the wind blows, and the grass grows, etc., and they will always have a following. Your energies would likely be better spent sticking with what you like best.

On the otherhand, if your goal was to stir the pot...you got it! LOL

Steve

I have to admit he has a valid point... there are alot of "breeders" who try to mis represent animals in order to make a huge profit. I think one of the easiest morphs to try and pawn off is the jungle morph. If I were to ever buy a jungle boa, I would most definately buy it from a breeder like Rich Ihle were he is respected, has extensive breeding knowledge, and has an animal that truely looks unique. Not to name names but some of the "jungles" I have seen on this forunm do seem like nothing more than an abberant animal in a litter full of normals.

And there is no way this guy should be banned for his opinion... from what I can tell he has alot more breeding knowledge than alot of us, including myself.

just my 2 cents...

Sayyed

n/p

I'd probably own some if the provenance were verifiable. I haven't looked far at ALL into jungles, but from what I've read, they seem pure and therefore, I have no problems with them.

Personally, I wouldn't buy an extremely inbred animal and I'd also be verifying data like a detective on a serial murder case just to back myself up, but the morph part of it doesn't bother me. As I've said before, I LOVE the T argentines and Nics as well as the hypo Nics!

Later, jb
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Jonathan Brady
My Kingsnake Photo Gallery

Many unethical breeders are selling decent normal columbians as jungles, or pastels when in fact they are just nice (and sometimes not) columbians. I know that there are true Jungles, but I tend to think just as many non jungles are sold as jungles every year, as jungles are sold every year.
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"Victory is reserved for those willing to pay its price"

I have seen quited a few BCI with abberent patterns sold as jungles in the last year or so. Are they definate jungles from a proven bloodline? "NO" , but there is a chance that they are unproven animals with the same genetic makeup as jungles. I think some of the boa morphs are very simular to what is going on in the ball python market.. anything a little different from the norm demands a huge pricetag. As for Hermann labeling his surinams jungles because the trait was passed down to this years offspring? Why bother? an abberent suri is an abberent suri..either you like them or you don't. It might take you 10 years to prove a pattern genetic in BCC, unlike BCI where you can do it in possibly 2, but ofcourse once it is proven genetic you must line breed them for YEARS to produce enough to conrer the market. That's my biggest complaint with the morph market... how long can you breed mother to brother ..etc .. etc.. before you totally ruin the genetic makeup of the original animals? Time is money in the BCI morph game..but I don't think the same holds true for the true redtail enthusiasts....a pretty normal will always be worth it's weight in gold... How many one eyed suris do you see? Now take a look around..how many one eyed albinos have you seen?
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"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"

How many regurged Suri have you seen? And how many regurged Colombian have you seen? Did you use to have a male Brazillian Amarali regurged that you decide to let him go? It's down to the bottom is that when there is a limit in available stock, inbreeding occured, doesn't matter locality or morph. Problem w/ inbreeding - weak gene get weaker...

generation when inbreeding is a factor. That is the reason I decided to give up on the brazilian amarali.. there just isn't enough blood out there for me to feel comfortable. As for true reds puking..I think the number 1 reason for regurge is feeding to soon.. All of the books say to feed every 7-10 days. That is just way to often for most baby true reds to handle.
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"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"

im with CE on both posts....CB suris (and other BCCs and BCAs)puke mainly because of keeper error. ive gotsuris and guyanas, not one has ever tossed on me, and theyve all got 2 eyes .

and you cant prove out a BCC trait and corner the market in 2 years... and id take a screamer "normal" BCC over a blind albino BCI anyday.

sean.

Is it because it's in the blood??? Just like albinism is sensitive to light, so if you keep inbreeding them, then they get weaken and weaken until they go blind. Same as if you keep inbreeding Suris, or Amaralis, they will puke and puke until none of the babies survive, since they can't hold a meal.

they are very different from BCI. They grow MUCH slower and thus need less food. They just don't have the same metabolism as BCI.. and that has NOTHING to do with inbreeding. You can purchase a wildcaught baby BCC and jsut like the CBB babies they will puke if fed to often or to much.
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"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"

they are very different from BCI. They grow MUCH slower and thus need less food. They just don't have the same metabolism as BCI.. and that has NOTHING to do with inbreeding. You can purchase a wildcaught baby BCC and jsut like the CBB babies they will puke if fed to often or to much.
LMAO - What made them different? Is it in the BLOOD??? Was the first imported Albino that Pete bought blind???

albinism on its own offers a whole slew of health problems (ever seen an albino human? they dont look like normal healthy people) that most dont take into account or feel any repricutions of. the point however is not lbinism. its the need to seriously inbreed ANY morph to conrner the market on it immediatley. visoin problems seem to run rampent in albino boas.... one of the biggest, highest bred, and and widley available morph in the BCI world.... making it the most inbred.... not a coincidence.

ive never seen a BCC or BCA with a vision problem.... and ive never seen a puking BCI (though ive heard of them) subtle proof to me that a snake that is generally much LESS inbred (BCC/BCA) has problems related to husbandry.... where as an animal mass produced for looks (looks that came from ONE animal) has problems of a genetic nature.

Totally ridiculous. Regurg in BCC has nothing to do with inbreeding -- it has to do with dumbasses keeping them in suboptimal temperatures and/or overfeeding. They're just different animals.

A weak gene gets weaker? What in the world is that even supposed to mean? Total gobledegook from a biological point of view.

Question is not boa related, however, with breed related. Why does German Shepherd always have hip problem? But not Doberman Pinscher?

Dogs are not snakes nor reptiles. Inbreeding has been documented and studied in mammals, but not in reptiles as far as I know. A friend in Southern California has line bred Cal kings for over 10 years without observing any negative effects in their fitness. Why? I don't know, but this has been repeated in herpetoculture many times and it suggests that inbreeding in reptiles and especially snakes in captivity is not the all encompassing evil that it has been made out to be.

>>Question is not boa related, however, with breed related. Why does German Shepherd always have hip problem? But not Doberman Pinscher?
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

My GSD has no hip problems. As far as I know, all large dog breeds have some potential for hip dysplasia. GSD's have been bred for a particular stance, a downward slope to their back, that may be responsible for hip problems being more common in that breed.

Any more complete irrelevencies you want to discuss?

Nobody is saying that inbreeding can't cause problems. However, it's certainly NOT responsible for regurging in BCC's, since wild-caughts do it just as much, if not more, than captive-breds.

i think when it comes to breeding dogs for (show) rather then (performence)like most breeeders of dogs,you should try and bred for good healthy animals,cull out the bad ones,,but if you have a week gened animal like a blind albino,don't breed this animal,i think in the end everyone would be better off breeding good healthy animals including albinos,i have allways had good luck with healthy animals,although some did have one eye,but these were never bred back to anything,,JMHO

Repeated inbreeding, such as in line breeding, typically results in a phenomenon called inbreeding depression manifested as lowered fitness in the inbred population. Gross morphological abnormalities like eye defects rarely occur. IMO the eye defects in albino boas are much more likely to be related to the absence of melanin in the eye. Considering the huge number of inbred captive populations of reptiles with very few if any inbreeding related problems, I would question the impacts of inbreeding in captivity for reptiles. It takes 500 individuals to have a completely outbred population. This suggests that some reptile populations may be naturally inbred. Certainly insular populations of reptiles such as those on the Galapagos Islands were heavily inbred initially. Some captive populations such as Publan milksnakes originated from very few wc individuals (4 I believe for Pueblans), further suggesting that inbreeding may not be a major concern in captivity. Of course, the affects of inbreeding may be masked by our husbandry (hand fed, vets and medicine), but this again suggests that inbreeding may only be a major concern in the wild where individuals and populations are constantly stressed and performance needs to be optimal. I would further add that IMO once your snakes are past one generation from wc locality matched breeders, you no longer have animals that are representative of the wild population. In captivity selection is either nonexistant (we keep everything alive) or completely biased since many keepers select future breeders based on the appearance that they prefer. Here on the west coast (USA), many salmon and steelhead hatcheries now take only wild fish for breeders. Wild and hatchery fish are treated totally different as it is now recognized that hatchery operations can have a major effect on the genetic makeup of the population in only a couple generations. Hatchery fish are fin clipped so they can be recognized and retained by fishermen.

>>I have seen quited a few BCI with abberent patterns sold as jungles in the last year or so. Are they definate jungles from a proven bloodline? "NO" , but there is a chance that they are unproven animals with the same genetic makeup as jungles. I think some of the boa morphs are very simular to what is going on in the ball python market.. anything a little different from the norm demands a huge pricetag. As for Hermann labeling his surinams jungles because the trait was passed down to this years offspring? Why bother? an abberent suri is an abberent suri..either you like them or you don't. It might take you 10 years to prove a pattern genetic in BCC, unlike BCI where you can do it in possibly 2, but ofcourse once it is proven genetic you must line breed them for YEARS to produce enough to conrer the market. That's my biggest complaint with the morph market... how long can you breed mother to brother ..etc .. etc.. before you totally ruin the genetic makeup of the original animals? Time is money in the BCI morph game..but I don't think the same holds true for the true redtail enthusiasts....a pretty normal will always be worth it's weight in gold... How many one eyed suris do you see? Now take a look around..how many one eyed albinos have you seen?
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>>"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

have you ever heard of a blind albino from the other strain? Just curious..maybe the defect is within that bloodline and not directly ties to the fact that it is an albino? Anybody else know if there has been sharp strain albinos born blind?
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"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"

albino strains, but I do know that there are at least two, and possibly more, mutations that will result in amelanism. This may explain why one line would have eye problems and another would not. I am speculating somewhat, but where the melanin pathway has been interrupted may be important. Then again it is speculation to assume that the incidence of eye defects is the result of inbreeding.

>>have you ever heard of a blind albino from the other strain? Just curious..maybe the defect is within that bloodline and not directly ties to the fact that it is an albino? Anybody else know if there has been sharp strain albinos born blind?
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>>"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Has there been any occurence of these eye defects in normal babies from litters from hets or poss hets? If not, this would suggest that it may not be genetic or extremely linked to the amelanism gene.

>>have you ever heard of a blind albino from the other strain? Just curious..maybe the defect is within that bloodline and not directly ties to the fact that it is an albino? Anybody else know if there has been sharp strain albinos born blind?
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>>"If woody would of went to the police, none of this would have ever happened!"
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Great post Charles.
-Eric