Reptile & Amphibian Forums

To me it would make sense that a breeder would get rid of their least desirable specimens by sending them through the mail(to the unaware customer). It might not be apparent to the untrained(even a season caretaker might not recognise anything unless there is something drastically wrong, because they do not have the rest of the clutch at hand to make comparisons with) eye of the owner, but little do they know that they could have been sent a much higher quality specimen. The breeder would then bring their best animals to shows, where looks would be much more important for obvious reasons. Does this sound right, or am I crazy? It just seems like that is what a wise breeder would do in order to maximise its profits. Although I understand, I don't like the idea when I realize that I am getting the crappiest specimen of the whole batch. This is why I would need to see the animal that I would plan to buy in person(along with its clutchmates).

thanks

Hello there, I totally understand your theory on this. Remember I cant speak for anyone but David Blair here. But when I got my Tashmoo I had PRECISELY the same thoughts. DB told me on the phone that he would select one for me that was healthy and strong. I asked for female and he said he would send me one that he had probed for female but he couldnt guarantee it. Totally understandable at that size. He also doesnt let anyone come to his facility and pick out animals because he is afraid of thefts. So, the only place he sells them is at a few shows and through the mail. I suspect he sells way more through the mail tho. If I was patient I could have waited for a good friend of mine to select one for me at the next show he was to attend and he would have sent me that one but of course I wanted one NOW so I trusted him to send me a good animal. Which he did. I think I probably put up this link but you can see her progress from day one to about 2 weeks ago at the link below.

Like I said, I cannot speak for the other breeders out there even the ones that have been mentioned here but why not give DB a call. His number is (760) 746-5422. He was most pleasant to talk to on the phone and gives all the after support you might need.

Here is a pic of my Tashmoo recently.

Carole

PS I dont work for him either!
http://community.webshots.com/album/30948630YFCKCQtMFt

I tried to put the pic in manually and no luck. Oh well. Here is another try of a pic of my Tashmoo at Easter this year.
http://www.reptilecare.com/miscpics/tashmoohead_easter2003.jpg

OK, I think I might get this right this time. Geez. Sorry for so many posts. Maybe someone can coach me on manually imbedding multiple photos.

Carole

If you were talking about adult or subadult lizards, you may have a case. Since all babies are pretty much identical in both cyclura and ctenosaura the breeder would be fooling himself if he thought he was packing the crappy animal. You will have no idea what your animal is going to look like until it is 1 to 3 years old. Some of the ugliest babies became the most awsome adults. Now if the animal had a defect, that would be another story.

You have obviously dealt with many more reptiles than I have but the difference between a lowly specimen and one that is more desirable(for most species)can be quite apparent, even in juveniles(though you are right, with some sets of traits it can be hard to tell). Facial symmetry, size and growth potential(evident after a few months, if not earlier), proportions, build, and symmetry should all be noticable, assuming you take into account the age and sex of the animal. The health of the immune system, vital organs and the genetic potential of the lizard could be hard to determine at first, but it would probably be apparent after the first few months, and it would be reflected in the animal's level of activity, appetite, and growth rate(assuming optimal conditions are maintained in all aspects, and that sex and age are taken into account). Color matters also, but to a somewhat lesser extent(it depends on what you want). If I have said something completely illogical, please feel free to respond.

Obviously if one has the opportunity to choose between animals, they are going to spend alot more time looking at minute details that the breeder won't notice. I have had people come to look and choose some of my animals, and have literally spent almost an hour not being able to decide what lizard to buy. If it is going to take that much time to make a decision on a lizard, then as far as I'm concerned I could have shipped any one of those lizards, and they would have been satisfied with what they got.
If your buying from a reputable breeder, then I wouldn't worry about all those things you listed.

I guess if it takes that long to discern any differences between specimens than they are close enough in terms of quality as it is, so there is no reason to worry.

So, what would you do (or any breeder, for that matter) with the sickly tiny one that has misaligned eyes, assymetrical arms and legs, bad color, and a twisted spine(hypothetical worst case scenario just to get a point accross). I know that this sounds harsh, but who wants to pay any amount of money for such an indesirable animal. Would you try to sell it, while misrepresenting it as the "one of the finest captive bred specimens", sell it at a reduced cost(with the option of either letting the customer know of the problem or not saying a word about it), try to give it away, or euthanize it? Such an animal might not be so common, but it is not a hit or miss thing. There are definetely different degrees of inferiority. I see no way(besides color) that a truely lowly specimen of any reptile could just "blossom", so to speak, a year or two after birth(this of course assumes that the defects in health are non related to the conditions under which the animal has been kept.

well i know mark had a c.pectanata that was born with or had a injury, resulting in a turned foot. that he offered free to pepole on the fourm who he knew could care for it. i myself have had only good luck in mail ordered animals. although it helps to deal with known breeders or dealers. talk to ya chris

Well, as most reputable breeders would do, I would put that sickly, deformed, misaligned spined, runt of a lizard in the box and ship it to the customer anyway. When they call me to complain about the condition of the animal, I would say that it was healthy before I shipped it.
NOT! What do you think?! There are two words you need to hear again, one is "reputable" the other is "unscrupulous".
If I'm not mistaken, all you have to do is ask around on the forums to know who to buy from and who not to buy from. Most breeders will usually freeze thier injured, deformed, or sickly babies, or give them away for free like I do. Also, as a breeder, lizards with stub tails don't bother me like they bother everyone else. If a lizard has excellent color, size, or disposition, but is missing toes, tail, legs (due to injury), I'll keep that guy as long as he or she can still perform (breed)

In the short term your theory makes sense. If someone just happens to have a clutch of lizards and wants to sell them without plans on selling other clutches it may make sense monetarily to send the least desirable lizards to those who have not seen the rest of the clutch. But there is another factor here: reputation. Over time, word will get around who sells the best animals. I know the first time I bought a lizard over the internet I was VERY skeptical. It was only after I talked to other people who had positive experiences with the breeder that I made up my mind to give it a try.