Reptile & Amphibian Forums

thanks

Since no one else wants to touch this...
The soft shell in tortoises under a year or there about is usually a sign of kidney failure. This could be brought about by parasites, dehydration or dietary deficiencies. It can be corrected for the animal is alert and eating well.
I'd suggest getting the temperatures in the range of 80 to 100F, Soak the little guy daily. Make sure it is getting loads of calcium carbonate like cuttlebone.
You really should have it checked by a vet to see if has parasites and go from there.
If it is passing urates (the white stuff) it has a good chance of making it.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

i have been trying to feed it cuttlebone ever since i got it, but it never eats it. It looks really lazy but still eats and gets lots of sun light and the hottest area in the cage is about 85-90. should i seperate my other tortoise? the other one is active and growing really fast. thanks

I've got this Egyptian hatchling that I thought was going to die for sure. This is a pattern I've seen more times than I care to remember. This is how I lost 4 albinos.
I've been nursing this one for going on a year now. What I'm doing now is soaking it every day. In the water I add calcium carbonate that is fine enough that it stays in suspension for quite a while. Fecals are normal looking and she is passing urates. (Liver and kidney looking good) Well, I do a suspension of one of the fecals and was blown away at the parasite load she had. Now, she is alone in a shoe box and I wash my hands between handling tortoises. They are soaked in marked boxes... Needless to say she had parasites, for one, and then developed a septic infection which I believe was a result of the parasite load. I treated her the way I thought she should be treated and the color is now returning to here plastron.
So (man, I'm long winded today), this is one of the reasons for the explaination I gave you.
I am not saying this is whats wrong with your tortoise but it is easy enough to determine. If you are feeding a varied diet and you have been paying attention to providing calcium you might want to look into this.
I also don't recommend calcium with D3 because you can cause other problems. That's why I suggest Calcium Carbonate or Calcium glauconate. There are other easily assimilated forms of calcium that a vet might recomend.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Soft shell is almost always caused by insuffcient calcium and vitamin D. You need to supplement with a good calcium source, and you need to make sure the UV light is high quality. It is UV light that allows tortoises to manufacture Vit. D, and you almost never see a soft shell in a tortoise that gets natural sunlight.

among inexperienced chelonian keepers. While this could be one cause it is far from the only or most common cause.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

It's by far the most common cause.

http://www.tortoisecare.co.uk/diseases-a.htm

What the vet failed to mention (because, I'm guessing, he's assuming everything else is 'normal') is that calcium metabolism is controlled by the kidney. If the kidney fails you can feed any form of calcium and D3 all day long and it will do nothing.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

You are both right (Do you two guys ever agree? You are both knowledgable and intelligent and you seem to thrive on beating each other down when the forum needs you both. I know it is none of my business, but I felt I needed to say something before your bickering got too personal and resulted in the forum losing a valuable member.)

Calcium deficiency will certainly cause a young tortoise to have a soft shell. It is one of the symptoms of metabolic bone disease (MBD) in tortoises.

MBD is a catch-all phrase for a myriad of syndromes. All of these syndromes are characterized by a decrease in bioavailable calcium. This can be because of several reasons: they are not fed a diet of calcium rich foods and/or are not supplemented with calcium, they are not exposed to UVB and therefore cannot synthesize vitamin D3, the animals have a negative calcium: phosphorous ratio (phosphorous binds calcium to form calcium phosphate which is not a bioavailable form of calcium), and finally the less common causes of the decreased amount of calcium is a disruption of the animal's ability to synthesize vitamin D3 (even if supplemented or exposed to UVB) due to kidney, liver,intestinal, thyroid, or parathyroid disease. (ref. Mader, et al 1996)

With that said, you are both right. The soft shell is a symptom of MBD which can be a result of any of the above causes, INCLUDING inadequate Ca supplementation and/or renal failure. In either case the treatment is the same. You need to improve your husbandry and diet for your tortoise, and you need to bring it to a vet to correct the obvious calcium deficiency. I would rec. bloodwork to rule out renal (kidney) failure and if theMBD has progressed to this degree you may need to have calcium injections to restore the bioavailable calcium. None of this will help if you do not improve the tortoise's conditions at home which means active calcium supplementation (Ed's rec. of cuttlebone cut up is excellent) and provide UVB either by daily exposure to natural sunlight ( at least 30 minutes) and/or UVB bulb 14 hour on and 10 hour off. Get a good calcium source to maintain with (I like Rep Cal with D3) to sprinkle on the tortoise's greens which should be low oxalate content dark, leafy greens (dandelion greens, endive, parsley, escarole, kale (limited amounts) etc) I would rec. warm water soaks to maintain hydration (very important especially if there is a renal component to the MBD). I would read this forum and any websites rec. to get excellent ideas on diet and temperatures to keep your sulcatas at. There are many experienced keepers here that have LOTS of valuable advice. We are all here because we care about the health, happiness, and well-being of tortoises. We can learn from everyone (even if we do not agree all the time).
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Stacey

I'm seeing a pattern where it appears that a dietary deficiency of calcium might not be the the main problem in MBD. This is based on my own experience and other sources. My point is to stress ruling out the other factors during or before any nutritional adjustments. This, once again, is a suggestion on my part. If it is renal failure and it has reached the stage of the soft shell it is very close to the end.
As to the discussions between me and Head... Where's the fun in 'yup... you're right'? And would you really have jumped in on this thread had we both said 'yup, you're righ'?
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I'll keep my big fat nose out of it! Happy New year!
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Stacey

why? I thought you had much to add to the discussion.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I never know when I am being a help or a butt-in-ski!
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Stacey

where you said "......you are both knowledgeable and intelligent..."

I'm afraid to ask....

You brought up many good points. As far as Ed and I, that is what happens when you get two naturally combative personalities on the same forum. I guess neither one of us listened when our mothers told us, "always play nice." Nice is fine and dandy, but like anything else, TOO much it can be a bad thing! Break out the boxing gloves and let's go to it! Just kidding. Of course, all the squabbling could be avoided if Ed just admits I know it all and he knows nothing. Kidding again! I respect everyone's right to their opinion. I may disagree with a person, but I would never tell someone they don't have the right to say what they believe about a subject. We all have our pride.

As far as the calcium and dietary points you brought up, you are right, if people would just give their animals the right diet, almost all health problems could be avoided. It really is pretty simple, it just seems complicated due to many peoples' inability to see things that should be obvious.

Anyway, thanks for putting in your 2 cents. Have a wonderful New Year.

This discussion brings up a point that's been bothering me for a while. If diet is so important, why do so many breeders/dealers (maybe mostly dealers) feed a poor diet? If you look at the pictures in the classifieds, the majority of them show the tortoises eating romaine--including the recent picture of the aldabra. Why would you feed a $3000 tortoise such a limited diet? Is it cheap, easy, both, or what?
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I guess the board would be a lot less colorful if we all agreed on everything all the time. Happy New Year!
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Stacey