Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Azteclizard mentioned herpnutrition.com and their telling him that UVB is not essential for calcium absorption.....I do believe that, while it may not be essential it must be beneficial.....otherwise the walkaboutfarms owners would not put their reptiles out in the warm months to soak up the sun as they say on their site. Their work is well respected and I commend them for their contribution to reptile health.

While not essential, it is beneficial, and personally I intend to provide the most beneficial environment I can for my dragons, not just whats essential. Kinda the difference between feeding them "enough" and feeding them well, housing them in minimum size tanks or giving them comfortable housing, etc.

If you find out from your converstaions with her that it's not beneficial, let me know.....but I bet she won't say that.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Of course she would say it's beneficial, it provides a natural means of the reptile producing vit. d3. She will also say that they can get all the d3 they need through dietary sources. What other benefits do you think UVB might provide? Did you stop to think that the reasons she keeps her reptiles outdoors during warm months might be to save on energy costs? Did you consider that she has a large collection of tortoises that would be very hard to maintain year round in her home. Rather than speculate that she keeps them outdoors for a perticular reason, why don't you ask her. It's easy to take something you read on her website and use it an argument against a post I made.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Don't need to ask....it says right on the site....." The bearded dragons are also outside at this time, passing the long days eating, breeding and worshipping the sun. " ......and not just her tortoises......also, since I keep and maintain outdoor cages as well....you don't save a whole lot in cost by doing so....weathering takes place yearly and repairs need to be made often and the initial costs of making outdoor enclosures outweighs the electric and bulb cost as you can only do it for a few months.

And as I said.....beneficial not essential.....that was my point nothing else......show me proof that it's not beneficial....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Tracey,
I could never show you proof that natural sunlight is not beneficial to Dragons. I believe that it is very beneficial as a means of providing them the ability of producing d3 in thier bodies. I do believe however that that is the only benefit. I believe and know that a dragon raised indoors under good lighting(not necessarily UVB) and sound supplement (easy to do) could live as long and healthy a life as one kept outdoors. I know Dr. Donoghue shares this opinion with me, and I trust her opinion. Reptile health and nutrition has been her life's work and passion for many years. Not but a handful of people have been doing the kind of research that her and her husband have been doing formany years. I think it is great that you have the opportunity to keep your dragons outside part of the year. I don't have that ability, so I do what I have to do to keep them healthy indoors. For me, that is providing bright lighing and supplementing their diet with d3. This has been the way I've kept and bred my lizard collection for the past 13 years.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Well, I would have to say that in certain parts of the country, it is definately more cost effective to raise reptiles (bearded dragons/chameleons/uromastyx) outdoors. In Southern California (for example). The cost of indoor lighting can easily push your electric bill up an additional $600 - $800 per month. I don't know about anyone else, but I can build some pretty nice outdoor enclosures with that amount of money and if you choose the proper materials, weathering and maintenance is minimal. Winter here only lasts approx 3 months, just enough time to brumate (except for the chameleons which we move indoors).

Some thing that most people don't take into concideration is Bearded Dragons, like many other lizards, have a "Third Eye" on the top of their head that is a photo sensor. This is what tells the dragon where the best basking spot is. It gives him the intesity and UV information he needs.

We all know (at least I hope we all know) that UVB stimulates the body to produce vitamin D3 and it is vitamin D3 that is essential for the absorbtion of calcium.

So it would stand to reason that you can supplement with vitamin D3, however, the amount of supplementation is where it gets tricky. It is very easy to OVER suppliment with D3 and over-supplementation has very negative effects. In order to adequately supplement with vitamin D3 without overdosing, you would need to know the exact D3 content of your dragons diet. Anyone here know how much D3 crickets and mealworms contain? If they contain any at all?

Now, for those people who wish to go through all the scientific research and exact measuring, that is great, more power to you and definately let the rest of know how it's going. For those who just don't have the time or the inclination, the best way of insure our dragons gets the calcium they need is to use a reliable UVB source.

I personally, have also observed that with the use of UVB, my dragons have increased activity, a better appetite and better coloration. Based on what I have observed, I would call those benifits.

Wendy
Scales - Premium Exotic Reptiles

Is there any proof that the third eye sees UV? I have heard maybe uva but not UVB. Most lights produce UVA. I have not noticed any changes going from incandescent and flouro to merc vapors and fluoros, or going merc vapors to halogens and flouros. Just a little change in yellow content. Dragons growth rates are the same. Dragons appetites are the same. Dragons attitudes towards me are the same. There have been people that have used repcal daily with igs (I know igs are different than bds) and not have any issues with hyper vitomtosis. And repcal has the highest quantities of d3. I use repcal twice a week, and have started to use the Trex stuff as bill speaks so highly of it. No problems with too much d3 or too little calcium. Dragons that lay 120 eggs and not a single one with a clear spot. think that says the dragon has enough calcium and they also had nice stiff jaw bones. proof enough to me that repcal twice a week for adult non breeding females and daily supplementation for adult breeding females and rapidly growing hatchlings is enough. you yourself probably use a very similar supplementation schedule with the same product do you not?
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

"It is very easy to OVER suppliment with D3 ..."

That is a false statement, Dereks husbandry practices alone prove that. He supplements breeding females daily with rep-cal. That product contains the highest level of d3 of any powder supplement on the market. So what level of d3 would cause a toxic effect? I don't know, but probably much higher than what rep-cal contains and it is not available in powder form. The only product on the market that might delivery a toxic dose is solar drops. It is a liquid that is concentrated. It also very clearly states on the package not to over use and follow instructions.
Contrary to what seems to be popular belief on this forum at least, there is a pretty large margin of error when supplementing with d3. So how do you provide your dragon with the d3 it needs without uvb producing bulbs. It is VERY simple actually and I have stated it on this forum several times. Once again, get a good supplement like miner-all I, rep-cal, or the t-rex supps. There are others but I prefer these. As far as d3 content goes, Miner-all and the t-rx supps. are at the low end of the spectrum and are safe for daily use. The t-rex supps. have the added benefit of containing macro nutrients and other micro nutrients besides d3. They also contain probiotics and plant extracts that are believed to enhance color. Rep-cal is at the high end of the spectrum as far as d3 content(100 x more than the other two products per kilo), and still seems to be safe for daily usage. So, how does one possibly cause a toxic effect with any of the powdered supplements available to them? I haven't figured that out yet, but there still seems to be this unfounded fear of doing so. Yes d3 is a fat soluble "vitamin" that COULD POSSIBLY be stored in tissue, but that is not the cause when supplemented in safe levels(again, any powdered product on the market). It does not have this percieved building up effect. Under regular supplemtation, d3 that is not metabolized is cnverted back into an less active form and excreted through the kidneys. It would take daily use of very high doses to cause storage in tissue and a possible toxic effect. This is virtually impossible with the products available to us as hobbyists.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Not to start an argument, but what evidence do you have to support your theory that vitamin D3 does not build up in the tissues, even in the short term? I have not seen any concrete evidence about the dosing (safe or otherwise) of vitamin D3 except for one reference from a Dr. Keith Benson (a veterinarian, but who is he in the grand scheme? I do not know) He referenced a safe dosing of vit D3 as 100 IU/kg/week ( I cannot find from where, but the reference was on www.icomm.ca under dragons and kidney disease). If that is true then it would seem to follow that there is a degree of build up/storage within the tissues. In Rep-Cal which has a proported 400,000 IU/kg of vit D3, when I measured a pinch (I know, not very scientific) it weighed 0.04 g which would be 16 IU. It would be very easy to overdose a 300 g beardie, as his weekly dose would only be 30 IU. Also, we keep saying how these lizards have been raised safely without any evidence of hypervitaminosis, but the tissue calcification and subsequent renal failure would be something one would expect to see in the later years of a lizard's life. I do not have any definitive answers either ( I am not sure anyone does at this point), butI wanted to play devil's advocate and see what other's thought.
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Stacey

Just as a question to you what supplement do you use and how often do you use it? I know the supplementation schedule Ifollow is a pretty standard one for dragons. Most people say give repcal calcium twice a week and herptivit once a week.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

That is exactly what I do (Rep-Cal twice a week and Reptivite once a week), but I started to wonder since I have a 60 gram dragon and I am supplementing at the same dosage as much bigger dragons receive. That is how this all started for me. That, and my morbid fascination with renal failure.
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Stacey

one thing to note about growing dragons is that they are gaining lots of fat. more fat more area to store d3. there should be some storage of vitamin d3 in the animals fat. that way when there is no uvb available they can still absorb d3. I have also never seen a controlled study on the amount of d3 a dragon should ingest. Guess an easy way to determine would be blood panels on dragons that are supplemented twice a week and on dragons supplemented more to see what their blood levels of d3 are compared to their wild counterparts.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I would definately like to see more research in this area. I get concerned about the long term effects especially with the babies. It makes me consider using the calcium supplement w/o D3, as I do use a MVB bulb, but then there is the controversey about how much UVB they put out. Right now I am going to stick with my current set up, but I may decrease to 1X/week Ca w/ vit D3 and add plain CaCo3 a couple days a week.
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Stacey

Yeah the only issue with going without d3 supp is knowing when the bulb goes bad and stops putting out uvb. no garanttees when that happens. also how much uvb is enough for a growing dragon, for a known growing dragon, for a gravid female? tough situation. that is why even the people that swear by uvb still use ca with d3. i have read that igs get by with 10 uw / cm /cm of uvb fine. is it the same for dragons? who knows? 10 uw / cm / cm is what a zoomed 5.0 puts out. so they seem to be a pretty good choice. merc vapors make me nervous they are so fragile and who knows when any given one burns out. just my thoughts, don't think anyone has had any issues with using repcal twice a week, if you want to lessen the amount use miner al indoors, it has 1/100th of the d3 and people have great success with it. i may do the same.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I also have a fluorescent fixture with a Reptisun 5.0 ( I am a freak about this kind of stuff) I figure they certainly won't make more D3 than they need. I don't want to undersupplement Ca in concern over D3. It seems to me with UVB light supplementation, oral supplements of D3 should probably be viewed like other vitamin supplements, once a week. If you hear any updated info (like D3 doses, blood level of D3 in wild beardies, tissue deposition of D3, etc) I would appreciate it if you let me know and I will do the same.

This is why I got a boy, imagine how much I'd have to stress about if I threw egg production into the mix ! You know what they say about a little knowledge...

Thanks for indulging me! Here's my guy in case you haven't seen him before. I need to get some more recent pictures he is growing fast.

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Stacey

Very cute dragon stacey.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Also, I am going to check out the Miner All indoors. That may be a good middle ground, so to speak.
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Stacey

Stacey,
That's some nice logical calculating you've done...lol. I'm impressed and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. You are correct there are not many defintive answers in this hobby, there is howerver alot of anecodtal evidence based on the husbandry practices of breeders and keepers over the years. I'm not sure I think that suggested safe dosage is written in stone. I think it is probably higher than that. Also, How much of that pinch you weighed do you think might actually make it's way into the dragons system? I need to be a little more clear about what I said in my previous post. Vitamin d will be stored in tissue. It is through homeostasis that levels will be regulated. The point is that with the products available to us as hobbyists, it would be very difficult to cause a toxic effect. Derek uses rep-cal daily with his breeding females with no problems that he is aware of.

"Also,we keep saying how these lizards have been raised safely without any evidence of hypervitaminosis,
but the tissue calcification and subsequent renal failure would be something one would expect to see
in the later years of a lizard's life."

Is it known that these ailments are caused as a result of how much d3 is provided to the reptile through out it's life? Dr. Donoghue(herpnutrition.com) is someone you might want to talk to about what you mention here. In my last conversation with her, she did mention something about it being her belief that these kinds ailments might be the result of improper hydration. In other words, an animal that is in a constant state of mild dehyration might be prone to these problems later in life. I will have to ask her to elaborate more next time I talk to her.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Thanks! Can you tell I was SUPER nerd in high school? Thank you also for your response. I agree completely with Dr. Donohouge (Sorry about spelling, I hate that you can't see the post you are responding to)I think that a constant state of dehydration would be a leading cause of renal failure in lizards. It is certainly, IMO, why in California we see such a high incidence of renal failure in captive adult iguanas.

With respect to the safe dosing of vitamin D3 I don't have any specific research to defend what I have been referencing. Neither do most of the doctors I am referencing, . I will look into specific research on the hypervitaminosis D as a cause of renal tissue calcification and subsequent renal failure. It comes up repeatedly with many different sources when I research renal failure in reptiles ( I told you, super nerd). This is fun! This is why I love these forums! No one I know could give a rat's @ss about renal function in reptiles.
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Stacey

I didn't see your original post, but I have to say that the proper amount of UVB allows them to naturally produce the proper amount of D3. Supplementation is also "beneficial" because natural sunlight provides more UVB that a light bulb. So I certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone use D3 supplements alone -- and not UVB lighting.. unless they want to risk serious problems in their animals.

I did have a good website that went into detail... but I don't have it bookmarked anymore. Here's a link to someone who received 2 groups of neglected (no UVB, only D3 supplemented) dragons. They provided sufficient UVB which resulted in healthy beardies.
http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections+index-req-viewarticle-artid-55-page-1.html

I've read that article before, and it does not "prove" anything really. Do I think that the dragons they recieved improved greatly in health in a short period of time? Of course, Cheri take great care of all of her dragons, I'm not suprized by the results. Do I think it was the UVB in the bulbs that were responsible for the results? No, there is no way to prove that at all. There are many variables that could have contributed the results she got. The good thing about her efforts are that those dragons are now healthy and thriving. As a side note, one of those dragons is in the posession of another forum user. It is in great health and has grown much more. The interesting thing is he doesn't use any UVB lighting at all, only bright light and supplemetation.

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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Bill is right . UVB has a benefit no doubt, safest thing is to use UVB or provide natural unfiltered sunlight. But your dragon does not need the UVB to be a healthy dragon. Those dragons you read about were kept under very poor lighting, possible just an incadescent no fluoro at all. Light intentisty stimulates their diet. just my 2 cents don't change because of me i would hate to see that happen.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

How many dragons have you raised without UV lighting? Have you done this for their entire lives? Were their growth rates normal? How much D3 supplements do you use and which type(s)?

Me myself about 400 babies this year. All 15 of my adults. Several rescues. I have had no bald eggs or weak jawed beardies. No twitching beardies. No signs of MBD. My beardies grow rapidly. Had some at 5 months old at over 250 grams. Pretty good if you ask me. The dist near me loves my dragons because they live. Have had them shipped over to isarel and england. So I say I have healthy happy dragons. I swear by RepCal with D3 twice a week for non egg laying adults, daily for egg laying adults and growing babies. Very similar to what most people on here do with UVB. I have started to use the TREX super food as Bill speaks so highly of it and from conversations with him I feel he is a very knowledgeable person.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Thank you kind sir...although I'm pretty sure you are in the minority of this of this forum in believing so...lol. That's great that you are trying out Allen's formulations. I think you will be happy with the results. I have my entire Rhac collection on those diets...they haven't seen a live insect in over a year.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

I am trying to get my geckos over onto it but they aren't having any of it. I am hoping they will one day. Will start the babies out on it. The dragons stuff is a direct result of hearing what you have had to said of it. makes sense the way it was made and the different formulas.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Yeah, I could be a challange to get them on it. I find it is easier with Leachianus and Auriculatus. If they accept babyfood, you could try mixing it up with diluted peach. and add less and less over time.
The diets have the added benefit of being minimally proccessed, and as such the nutrients may be more potent. Pellets are heated and extruded which my cause some degredation of the nutrients. I wonder if the nutrient profile on the rep-cal pellets are from a pre-processed blend, or the end product. I still use the pellets along with the t-rex supps.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Yeah that could be intersting to know. I do love rep cal pellets for the dragons and my ig. the ig likes it more than veggies. for my dragons i have started to dust daily with the trex icb and then once a week with repcal calcium and multivit. think that will be the way I cntinue to go. And the gecks do like the bannana baby food, so i give them that mixed with the trex crested food. they eat it but not if i put in too much of the trex powder. oh well i still give them crickets and don't see myself weeding out the crickets.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com