Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i usually dont like store bought food in a can stuff for herps but i got this stuff for christmas for my redfoot. it is Reptomin "softgel land turtle tortoise iguana or fruit eating reptile diet"
has anyone heard of this?good bad? or should i just say thank you to my mother for getting it and throw it away?hehe
heres the general analysis
crude protein-6.0%
crude fat .2%
crude fiber 4%
moisture 78%
"fruit and vegetable based gelatin diet"
thanks -Dave

In terms of protein contents it does not seem to be too high, as a 'natural diet' diet for torts is estimated at around 4 % protein.
In terms of oxalic acid, goiterogens and other substances found in veggies, that are not good for your tort, it is hard to tell, what they used for the preparation.
I doubt, that you would harm your tort, if you use it up slowly in small amounts as a supplement to the diet you are feeding.
Anyways it remains to see, if your tort is interested in gel stuff...

An important clarification here.
That 4% number is taken out of context on a regular basis. You might see this as argumentitive... and it is. That is because actually protein consumption for a higher vertebrate has to be higher than 4% if you think about it.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

At the top of the page linked here
www.tortoise.org/general/tntdiet.html#wilddiet
there is a table listing foods consumed by desert tortoises derived from paper in 1976.

Says the average protein (as % of dry matter) of foods consumed by desert torts is 10.5%. Of course you can drive yourself nuts with the dry weight vs "natural state" of vegetable matter (i.e. things like greens can be 20%-30% protein by dry weight.)

Anyway, it sorta backs up what you are saying about needing more than 4% protein.

But I think what is often missed in these discussions about % protein is the fact that a creature probably needs X grams of protein to live/grow/breed/etc., and if he gets it in 1 bite of high protein feed or 5 bites of low protein feed, it doesn't matter too much. It's the total package of balanced nutrition that matters. If the feed is full of unneeded fats, and has insufficient fiber and calcium, then it doesn't matter what the protein content is.

The concern I have with the canned feeds is that they are made of things that are generally not recommended for tortoise (soy, wheat, corn, etc.) because of "anti-nutrient" qualities like goitrogens, oxalates, etc. Are these anti-nutrients removed or neutralized in processing, or do they not effect tortoises in the ways we think they might, or is it that the tortioses are thriving in spite of them? (other possibilities exist, too).

A secondary concern is that the nutrient-dense, high protein feeds *might* make it easier to over-feed a tortoise. Of course a tort can over-consume on weeds and grasses, but it takes more effort to plow through a mountain of tough, fibrous weeds versus a small mound of tasty Mazuri pellets.

"That is because actually protein consumption for a higher vertebrate has to be higher than 4% if you think about it."

Ed this really doesn't make sense.

More than 4% of what Ed?
Is that dry weight or wet weight?
4% of total consumpion?
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

How many cells are replaced in a given day just to replace old cells? This does not even consider added growth Now, what percentage of an organism is protein? If you consider this alone I'm sure you would have to have more than 4% protein intake the way I see it.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

4% of what?
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

Joe, if you would like to discuss this for the benefit of others, do so. Otherwise, what is your point. This is something you and I have discussed time and again.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

No we haven't discussed this.
I was just wondering what you are refering to?
Is it 4% of the total diet?
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

just to clarify things, the nutrient content of foods and feedstuffs are expressed in percentages, and unless specified (ie. "on an as-fed basis", these percentages are on a dry matter basis. so, tortoise food that is listed as having 4% protein means that for every 100 grams of food, there is 4 grams of protein. Animal requirements for nutrients, however, are expressed as so much per day (ie. 50 grams per day), and are also specific for size/age of the animal. this would mean that if a tortoise required 50 grams of protein a day, that tortoise would need to eat 1250 grams of the 4% protein tortoise food.

btw, these numbers are made up. does anyone know the protein requirements for tortoises?

griffin

While there don't seem to be many studies on tortoise diet in the wild, one has been done by W.J. Rosskopf (1982) and Hansen et al (1976)on the native diet of G. agassizi. It suggests, that the protein content of the food intake ranges from 1% (Opunita sp.) to 5% as the median content for the grasses consumed.
Andy Highfield (director of the Tortoise Trust) cites this in his very recommendable little book ($12.-) 'The Tortoise and Turtle Feeding Manual':
...A safe upper limit for items which are regularly included in the diet was estimated at about 7%, which is about as high as it is ever attained in the wild by most species.
An average intake level of 4% would represent a close approximation of that experienced in the natural habitat.
All percentages are cited in 'wet' weight form...
A. Highfield also states, that the claim often made, that terrestrial chelonians receive significant additional protein in the wild as a result of consuming insects, anthropods and carrion, is not supported by fecal pellet analysis (Dearden, Hansen and Steinhorst, 1974). The study indicates, that such intake is so low as to be of virtually nil dietary significance.

So,- as many tortoise species seem to be quite opportunistic in their food choices and seasonal availability as well as differences in habitat composition represent many variables, these numbers are certainly not cut in stone.
But this is the literature that is available to me and the reason, why I stated those 'average 4% protein intake' in my earlier post.

Gaby

You/mr. Highfield might want to provide some kind of reference as to what he basis his conclusions on. This is not for arguments sake but for further review. To me his comments do not make sense.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

which part doesn't make sense?
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Interesting numbers.
A 99lb human male requires 45 grams of protein.
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

Per minute, per hour, per day... and you say my comments do not make sense. Again, Joe, If you'd like to enter a discussusion, enter the discussion.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Per day ED
Did you not read the post I responded to?
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

My computer must have dropped the 'per day' in this post.

Posted by: Chiro at Sat Jan 3 22:05:46 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Interesting numbers.
A 99lb human male requires 45 grams of protein.
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Joe(Chiro)
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

no you just forgot to read what I was replying to

btw spell check would be great here...for me
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

I simply used those numbers as an example. I stated at the end of my post that those numbers were made up. I have no idea what the daily protein requirements for a tortoise (any species) are, as they have not been determined. Sure, we know that they eat plants in the wild that are a certain percentage of protein, but requirements are expressed as absolute amounts per period of time. (ie. grams of protein needed per day). additionally, these nutrient requirements are often expressed as a percentage of body weight.

I am very interested in what the true protein requirements of different classes/species of tortoises are, especially from a scientific point of view. Until some extensive research is done at some zoos, we will not know, and can only estimate. At best, right now we can estimate what the tortoises daily protein intake is. But that's a long way from knowing the requirements.

griffin

What bothers me is that how can the protein requirement be different for different species let alone being different for turtles and tortoises. I would think similar organisms would require similar quantity of a particular nutrient.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

the following is purely speculation:

I would think that the protein requirements of a growing red-eared slider would be greater than the requirements for a tortoise (lets use a leopard as an example). Think about how fast each of those species grows. The RES grows quite fast compared to the leopard. Because of this, the fast growing turtle will require more protein per day to support this rapid growth, as compared to the slower growing tortoise. Additionally, I think that young, growing turtles would require more protein than adults. If I am not mistaken, aren't the diets of young RES more protein rich (includes more animal food sources) than the diet of adult RES (includes more plant matter)?

griffin

Along the same lines, wouldn't the Leopard tortoise need the same, or more, amount of protein because it gets larger? I'm still under the impression that all chelonians need a similar amount of protein with the only requirement difference being the age of the animal. Younger animals are going to need more protein than more mature animals. I think that point everyone agrees on.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Ed As I pointed out

All chelonian needs are NOT the same.
And the needs among individuals are NOT the same.

You must take activity level, age, weight etc into consideration.

compare a sulcat and an alligator snapping turtle of equal size.
One is very active to be able to eat enough...the other just sits there and waits. Do they have the same requirements?

Do you have the same protein needs as a marathon runner of the same height?

Does the sulcat that walks 5 miles a day to find food need the same amount as the smae size animal in a 100square foot enclosure?

Here is a hint ...no
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

"What bothers me is that how can the protein requirement be different for different species let alone being different for turtles and tortoises. I would think similar organisms would require similar quantity of a particular nutrient."

ED
Think about it.

The main difference between chelonians is not the need for protein...its how they get it and how much is needed to support their "life style". And more impotantly, how they evolved to extract it from the food they eat. The needs and methods of obtaining nutrients of a strict herbivore are very different than a carnivore.

Does an alligator snapping turtle have the same needs as a sulcata?

One is sedentary...the other active.

Look at the RDA of protein for humans. Even within a species where the minimum protein requirements are known, all are not equal. The RDA varies with age, gender, weight etc.
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

Before we drag the conversation over to the types or forms of protein, how about we try and come to some kind of resolution as to how much protein is enough or required or too much?
The first problem I see when I'm reading this thread is what percentage of the daily intake is actual protein. Are the percentages being thrown around dry weight or the total of weight of the actual material consumed? The point to this question is that different 'researchers' use different calculating methods or interpretations of the various methods.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

"Before we drag the conversation over to the types or forms of protein, how about we try and come to some kind of resolution as to how much protein is enough or required or too much?"

But Ed...thats part of knowing what they need

"The first problem I see when I'm reading this thread is what percentage of the daily intake is actual protein."

the first problem is how many grams of protein is needed to sustain and allow for growth and reproduction

"Are the percentages being thrown around dry weight or the total of weight of the actual material consumed? The point to this question is that different 'researchers' use different calculating methods or interpretations of the various methods."

Thats why I asked you 4% of what?
The percent of protein for the total daily intake isn't important
More important is the # of grams per day
The percent IS important in the individual food item. Aquatics can handle far more conncentrated forms of protein than grassland herbivoires.

Which is why knowlegeable keepers, vet nutritionists and breeders recomend feeding high fiber low protein foods to torts like sulcatas. The sulcata will get the # of grams it needs but is designed to get it from a higher volume of food.

And then we have the importance of long stem fiber.
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

What Ed, don't you feed your tortoises a high fiber, low protein diet?

You have to realize that there are many things to factor in when deciding whats best for any individual tortoise. Yes, I said individual tortoise, not species, not tortoises or turtles in general, and especially not clumping each identified species into a single group as a whole. Nothing is cut and dry and black and white like you seem to feel it is and not one diet alone is going to work straight across the board.

Take for instance, I'm now working on a parasite riddled group of homeana that are passing live and dead nematodes with blood, one at this point is showing signs of sepsis, and some are really thin, just to name a few of their ailments and to keep this short. I've had them for about two weeks and much has happend during the time that I don't want to make this a novel. What would work with this group; Mazuri? For you its seems to be the one shoe that fits all and you've even hinted that it cures infectious disease.

The questions posed toward your comments are mere fundamental questions. When one makes a blanket statement that a tortoises diet should be 4% protein or more; what does that mean and how do we derive a formula or essentially a diet? Is this where your figure comes from? http://www.anapsid.org/dietcons.html If it does, you really should read the article again as the number you pulled out is taken out of total context.

Debbie
--
Director, Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.
http://www.maturtlerescue.org
Board Member, Asian Turtle Consortium
http://www.asianturtle.org
Moderator for Massachusetts Turtle Rescue's Online Community
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Maturtlerescue/join
Co-Owner of the North American Box Turtle Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NorthAmericanBoxturtle/join

How many cells does an elephant have to replace? Or a hippo? Or a gorilla? Zebras? Horses? Moose?

All these animals manufacture a tremendous amount of muscle and replace lots of cells every day and they eat a very tiny amount of protein because they are 100 percent vegetarian. Why would tortoises be unable to do so?

Protein is overrated in many instances.

im just trying to figure out if i will do more harm than good feeding a little. thats it! i appreciate you guys going so far indepth. but im kind of looking for a yes no maybe throw it away kind of answer. im not trying to be rude
-dave

I looked the product up on the tetra company website.

It only mentions that it's made of soy and apples.

I'd say that if there are no animal products listed in the ingredients, then go ahead and use it as a small part of a varied diet.

Mix some in with the other items you usually feed to your tortoise.
That way you won't have to insult your mother, and the tortoise gets something a little different in his diet.

.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hi dave, This much I can tell you for sure. You are not going to get a cut and dry answer on this one. As you can see there are way too many obscure variables. I can say for sure that 4% protien consumption per feeding for a tortoise is way too low.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

ed again you don't get it.
Nothing obscure.

If it needs 40 grams of protein (per day ed) and is fed items containing 4% protein...then it would have to eat 1000 grams of food.

A tort can get the needed "RDA" with food that is 4% protein.
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in humans at least, excessive protein consumption can actually interfere with calcium absorption? I wonder if that's true of tortoises as well. It's certainly true that people can get by with much less protein than they usually consume.
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Sohni
Northern California

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.2 Hermann's Tortoises
plus my kids' herps:
0.0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

But the problem seems to be what is 'too much' protein for tortoises. For some reason the following question just popped into mind. Why is it that aquatic turtles require some where around 30 to 40 % protein and Tortoises do not? aren't they the same organism?
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

again Ed
Is that 30-40% of what?

The part you don't seem to understand is that all animals need a certain amount of protein per day.
The % refered to is the % of a particular food item. Aquatic turtles evolved to eat a higher concentration of protein per item.

In other words...a sulxata evolved to eat plant matter that is relatively low in protein. Lets just stick a number to it 7%.
But needs hypothetically 50 grams of protein per day.

No leats just say we have a snapping turtle the same size that needs 5og a day. But the food the snapping turtle eats is more concentrated protien fish. around 20% protein.

It just means the tort has to eat more than the turt to get the same amount.

But what about essential amino acids?
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

Joe,

I tried to make that point about 500 posts ago!

A turtle/tortoise might need X grams of protein. It might get those grams from 5 bites of high protein food, or 20 bites of low protein food.

So, as you pointed out, a snapper can eat a relatively small amount of fish to get its grams, while a sulcata has to eat a mountain of grass.

Hi Brad
I saw your post...and refered to it in one of mine.

But Ed doesn't understand it
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I can tell
Perhaps re-read the posts.
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Joe(Chiro)

The Russian Tortoise Web Pge
The African Tortoise Web Page
North American Box Turtles
Massachusetts Turtle Rescue, Inc.

and once again did marvelous in obscuring the point.
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Ed
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Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care