Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This message will also be posted in the Herp Law/CITES Forum.

Reading a post regarding potential captive hybridization of box turtles (eastern and ornate) over on the Box Turtle forum got me to wondering:

Suppose Species X has a range from California to New Mexico (states used for purposes of discussion--any similarity between this post and existing laws is purely coincidental). Species Y, in the same genus, ranges from New Mexico to Arkansas. The observant reader will notice that the species' ranges overlap in NM. Now let's say California prohibits the keeping of Species X, Arkansas prevents the keeping of Species Y, and NM prevents keeping either species.

Hypothetical scenario: I procure a male Species X from Arizona (where, for purposes of discussion, this is legal) and a female Species Y from Texas (where again, for purposes of discussion, it's legal). I breed the two and end up with hybrid offspring, visually distinct from either "pure" species.

Would a person be allowed to keep these hybrids in CA or AR, where one of the parents would've been illegal, or in NM, where both species are illegal? My scenario assumes the ability to distinguish these hybrids from naturally-occuring, uncrossed specimens.

I pose this question because as some folks are acutely aware, species occurring naturally in some states are illegal to keep, though some may be desireable captives. I'm not asking about the ethics or opinions of hybridization itself, but merely the legality of keeping such a hybrid in a state where one or both parent species occurs naturally.
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

You ask a very good question here.... I've wondered the same thing... I'll ask another question here, less hypothetical...

I live in Arizona. In this state you can obtain a lot of native snakes through catching them in the wild with a hunting permit, or someone else who has a permit can give you one, or the offspring of one, but you CANNOT buy or sell native species, and there are definate limits to what you can own and what you cannot and how many.

At this point in time I own (among all my other snakes) two native arizona snakes that were given me... one is a California Kingsnake that someone tried to sell to a petstore, but upon realizing he couldn't, he gave it to them, they gave it to the local herp society, and then it was given to me as I promised to give it a very good home. I know nothing about her history, whether she was bred in captivity, or was caught in the wild. I've wondered... if I breed her to my high white california kings (captive bred) can I sell the offspring, or do I have to give them away... and what if I was able to coerce my corn snake to breed with her... what then? Would those jungle corns have to be given away? My other native snake is a captive bred Pyro pyro given to me by the breeder as per the laws of the state. I don't plan to hybridize her, but what if I do? What if I breed her to a corn, or to one of my Jurassic Milks, or to a cal king, or a blotched king? Would I have to give away the offspring or not?

Strictly speaking, I believe that the laws of the state are clear... you must give away any offspring, so a literal translation states that no matter the mate, the offspring of a native snake must be given away and not sold.

It's an interesting conundrum.
-----
~Sasheena

I think the spirit of those laws are designed to protect wild native species from overcollecting, so logically I think it would be fine to sell hybrids. Of course, laws don't always work logically so I suggest you check first. If I were dealing with my state, I'd actually get it in writing.
-----
Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

Thank you, a logical response. I think that is why I feel like I do, that it would not be "bad" to work with these species since only one of the two (if that) was wild collected, (she's so docile that I doubt she WAS wild collected), and I don't plan on releasing the offspring into the wild, and I don't plan on augmenting my collection with wild collected specimens. I find that wild snakes are much more interesting IN THE WILD, and my captive bred ones are fine where they are too. But I will check with the Arizona Fish & Game to make sure I am not making any errors. Of course I haven't yet shown the kind of patience necessary for hybridization, so I doubt it's an issue at all!

>>I think the spirit of those laws are designed to protect wild native species from overcollecting, so logically I think it would be fine to sell hybrids. Of course, laws don't always work logically so I suggest you check first. If I were dealing with my state, I'd actually get it in writing.
>>-----
>>Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
>>Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?
-----
~Sasheena

Most states have prevented such loop holes in their species protection by also placing a protection status (or making it illeagal to own) varios hybrids of the protected species...for example in Florida eastern indigo hybrids would be just as illegal to keep and propagate as eastern indigos (this is to prevent confusion to the already herpetoligically retarded game officials)

Btw, most game officials couldn't identify their own ass with a Conant feild guid to game offical asses.

When I used to work for an animal wholesaler we frequently would "mis-mark" certain species (not necissarily endagered species...but native species...for example black rat snakes magically mystically became "Carolina Ratsnakes" and presto~changeo they were leagal...whoohoo~!) to not have to deal with these guys comming in with guns drawn and a 1967 TFH Encyclopedia of reptiles...gotta love em' (Boy I hope the homeland security people can better identify terrorist than most fish and wildlife can identify an indigo from a racer)

I guess that is true. Some hyrbids are regulated. If you check a lot of different fish and game regulations, you can see especially with fish that hybrids are regulated. Andy
-----
Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I would expect they are. That is how people that keep certain species of caimans get around the law. They just hyrbridize two species and then they can be transferred across borders.
-----
Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry