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This message will also be posted in the Hybrid discussion forum.

Reading a post regarding potential captive hybridization of box turtles (eastern and ornate) over on the Box Turtle forum got me to wondering:

Suppose Species X has a range from California to New Mexico (states used for purposes of discussion--any similarity between this post and existing laws is purely coincidental). Species Y, in the same genus, ranges from New Mexico to Arkansas. The observant reader will notice that the species' ranges overlap in NM. Now let's say California prohibits the keeping of Species X, Arkansas prevents the keeping of Species Y, and NM prevents keeping either species.

Hypothetical scenario: I procure a male Species X from Arizona (where, for purposes of discussion, this is legal) and a female Species Y from Texas (where again, for purposes of discussion, it's legal). I breed the two and end up with hybrid offspring, visually distinct from either "pure" species.

Would a person be allowed to keep these hybrids in CA or AR, where one of the parents would've been illegal, or in NM, where both species are illegal? My scenario assumes the ability to distinguish these hybrids from naturally-occuring, uncrossed specimens.

I pose this question because as some folks are acutely aware, species occurring naturally in some states are illegal to keep, though some may be desireable captives. I'm not asking about the ethics or opinions of hybridization itself, but merely the legality of keeping such a hybrid in a state where one or both parent species occurs naturally.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

you may want to get involved with those responsible for the regulations. Try to develop a repoir and as the hobby changes propose amendments appropriate to those changes. Otherwise just keep what your doing quiet and fall under the "we don't have the staff to enforce our regulations" umbrella.
And fight anyone trying to pass banning legislation. The deal is if a regulation is on the books and appearently works there is no need for to legislate it over the reg. If the reg. doesn't work challenge the authority of the reg. to that dept.
Most of the dnr/f&w start with common folks running them. People appointed not elected. And most will talk to you. They look at public health and conservation mostly in the regulations.Major income comes from hunting license and fines. If they are vitally wrong in what they have on the books, challenge them. And let them know that they are government appointees and that they can lose there jobs with the next vote, or mostly before a vote if publicity is bad.Write to local papers about these issues in the open forums.If a biologist takes on a government job he/she is losing alot of annual income in the civilian job market. Challenge everything in personal confrontation.
It is always amazing to me with the number of people that participate as herpers on forums that none can agree long enough to make a political stand for the hobby.

>>you may want to get involved with those responsible for the regulations.

It's a hypothetical situation; it may already be legal--I don't know, and was asking for sake of argument!

If anyone has any experience with this sort of scenario, I'd appreciate the input. I ask because although my situation is hypothetical, it could be something I could engage in sometime in the future.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

While one can keep up to five native species per person, it seems there are no regs on hybreds of native species unless it looks like a native specie and then you had better have a reciept or paper work. As far as selling ( even though I don't think this was a part of this thread ), if it at all looks like a native, even though it is hybred, no to selling within the state unless you have the permit to sell to another permitted person. Then of course the same thing, you would need your reciept and paper work on the specie in order to sell. So I cannot sell say an albino or amel bullsnake in my use to be home state of Missouri. If i wanted to sale a gopher cross/bull snake and it looked bull snake, I could be in trouble trying to sell but probably not just keeping it. It is a fine line and here we go again, probably up to interpretation of the and or agency which has got me in trouble before.

Chambo

It is a fine line and here we go again, probably up to interpretation of the and or agency which has got me in trouble before.

It seems like the "if it at all looks like a native" wouldn't stand up in court, where the evidence would be presented.

It reminds me of a thread on the Hybrid forum about the kid who wanted to release hybridized ringnecks in PA. Someone pointed him to the PA regs (actually, their FAQ) in response. I went to the site and towards the bottom it talks about commercialization of native herpetofauna, and that while the sale of collected specimens was illegal, it's against "their philosophy" to allow the sale of captive-bred specimens. That's problematic--is it merely "against their philosophy," or is it against the law?
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Interesting. I wonder if the Censor even read far enough into the thread to see that it stayed quasi-on-topic.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet