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I find it hard to believe that a reputable breeder and knowledgeable herp shop told you to take a brumating female (at 8 months that is rare to start with, more like she is already stressed and needs to see a vet) and put her in with a 13 month old male without a quarantine period??? Thats is one thing that ALL knowledgeable herpers know.

Anyway,

She is too young, she is not active whether brumating or sick and she needs time, good nutrition, and extra calcium before mating and she should have a Vet check or at minimum a fecal. Both dragons should be checked and you should feel like they have qualities that should be breed and produced in young. You should also have homes for those offspring to go to (they can be very expensive to raise just to sellable age) and be prepared in the event of some sick or problem babies and the mother breed that young, that will need medical care and a lot of attention. One breeding may produce several clutches and the female needs to be in prime condidtion (besides old enough) prior to being introduced to a male to get her through those gravid periods.

Not all dragons when two or more are together will wave and bob if that is your reason for getting two together. We have several females together and I can not remember the last time they waved or bobbed to each other..... they do interact with the opposite sex, as that is normal mating ritual. But again, at 8 months and not "thriving" right now, that is not something she is ready for. You stated you were aware they may breed and had done a lot of research, so I assumed you were aware of the outcome of that.

To answer your other question, can he hurt her.... yes, he can and will if she is not ready to breed and he is insistant on it, the fact you state she just sits there tells us she is certaily not ready.

We have had others on here who's dragons lost tails, feet or serious injured from the male attempting to breed when she was not ready, which is also way you house them separate. The mother of one of my dragons took the entire leg off the father because of his repeat attempts to breed.

Its just hard to imagine that a "highly regarded breeder" advised you to do this.

Sorry if you felt that was condesending, but you had stated you had researched this and was aware. As I read the entire thread and the situation changed, along with her not eating or pooping for two weeks, it seemed a little alarming to put her in with a male period, let alone that she was only 8 months old and not grow up herself yet.

Housed separately and being able to see each other occassionally will let you see a lot of bobbing if that is what you want without risking either of them right now.

Best to you and the dragons, you might want to read Dr Tosneys site for general information on bearded dragon care, brumation and breeding.
Dr Tosney's Care Site

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www.reptilerooms.com

Thanks for the added insight.

At the bottom I've pasted the latest guidance I've received from the breeder in response to me questioning wether they will be able to live in the same cage as I was led to believe. Please critique....

Chances are Rex will be going to my friend and I will stick with one or get her sister which she supposedly has happily lived with since day 1.

If I were to keep both the local herp shop owner has agreed to buy all eggs.

I don't think she's really brumating, she ate some superworms today and is more active.

CORRESPONDANCE WITH BREEDER - FYI:

They'll be able to live together eventually, it'll just take some time. Anytime you introduce a new dragon, it takes time, that's pretty much the norm. When they're ready to live together, then you can get a leopard gecko or something for your little tank - hahaha. I don't think you can get them neutered, but once he's used to company, he won't pester her. One more thing - be very careful with those superworms! Only give her a couple at a time. Dragons are so food-oriented, sometimes they won't crunch them up well enough and they can get lodged in their GI tract causing terminal ingestion. It doesn't happen all that often, but I've seen sub adult dragons die within an hour of eating just a few of those and I can't help you if that happens. Personally, I don't use them - they just get crickets here.
Have a great weekend,

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 1/2/2004 at 9:11 PM Aubrey wrote:

>Thanks for the additional guidance. I made a shady cooler spot for
>her...
>she stayed there for a while then decided to bask??? I'll just keep
>putting fresh greens and a couple SuperWorms out for her each day w/
>fresh
>water in case she decides she's hungry. I need to get a scale to monitor
>her weight.
>
>If she and Rex don't work out I may be interested in getting one of her
>female clutchmates (if they're still avail). I have a good friend that
>would love to take Rex in and I could still see him regularly . We really don't want or have the room to set-up a permanent 2nd cage and it kinda
>defeats the original purpose of getting a 2nd.
>
>The more research I do the more it seems unlikely that they can live
>together,,, I didn't realize how sex crazed these male herps are.... Can
>you get them neutered?
>
>- Aubrey
>
__________________________________________________

>
>Hey Aubrey,
>Couple other tips for you, (kind of ran out of time this morning.)
>Since she seems to be in 'burmation mode' I would go ahead and keep her in
>your quarantine tank for now, (best to do that anyway.) Once she's up and
>feeding again, and big enough to hold her own - then you could try them
>together. Still keep an eye on them, if he tries to mate with her, they'll
>still need separate quarters until she's ready, (probably by this summer
>if
>she feeds well.) By then they should be fine together all the time. Also,
>if you want to fecals; best wait until she thinks its spring to do one on
>her. You'll probably find some coccidia and maybe a few pinworms. Both are
>harmless in small numbers, normal gut fauna in a dragon eating crickets as
>a staple. Their immune systems keep everything in check. I wouldn't treat
>for it unless absolutely necessary, (ie: thin, listless dragon in bad
>shape) The meds available to "cure" coccidia can do a lot of damage to
>their kidneys. As long as your dragon looks and seems healthy - it's fine.

but I think there is a miscommunication there..

your taking her "in time" as a few days adapting them together and missing that they are saying "eventually" "When they're ready to live together""Once she's up and feeding again, and big enough to hold her own" and "if he tries to mate with her, they'll still need separate quarters until she's ready,(probably by this summer if she feeds well.)" BUT.. I think age needs to be spelled out between you too.... I see them saying this summer, not now, but I can see how you may have read it that way also. But they also advised "keep her in your quarantine tank for now, (best to do that anyway.)" Again, time needs to be spelled out.

The only thing I disagree with is the "By then they should be fine together all the time". Although there are males that can stay with one female and not bother her non stop, that is NOT the norm for male dragons. 99% of them can not be in with only one female and not have problems.

There is one exception we have seen to that, the Hypo-pastels are not big breeders for some reason, possibly due to the males not getting as dark, so the females not repsonding and we have seen male and female (mature) of those together without the male pestering the female non stop.

What they say about coccidia and pinworms is true, in small amounts they are not a problem, but when stressed or changing enviroments, is when they bloom out of control and you will see a lot of the same signs that you see in a brumating dragon.... so we recommend that others have them checked after two weeks in the new home and see if they have a high load that is causing the sleepiness and lack of eating.

If it is higher than should be and that is affecting her health, you have other options besides medicating them to bring it down and back into control, but if that does not work or the animal's health is compromised (which this one,if NOT brumating may be) then you may need to treat for them, pinworms are not that big a problem with meds, the coccidia meds can be harmful, but there are support methods you use with them to lower the risk and make it easier for them.

Get a fecal done and there is a problem you can address it prior to her getting to run down and answer if it is brumation or something else going on. But allowing her to become gravid right now would certainly compromise her health, so really no visit time with a male dragon (they can breed in less than 30 seconds)

If her count is high and that is what is affecting her, you can come back on here and several others can advise you of cleaning routine, substrate and hydration to lower it, or if she needs treated with meds, the support methods that make risk minimal.

8 month old have been known to brumate, but it is not the norm in one that age and since she has moved homes that is a stress to many, been exposed to a an older male that could be stressful, not eating well or pooing... all strong indicators that she should be checked now and since in with him also, he needs to be checked too.

We never try to mate dragons under 350 grams and rarely even then unless they are over two years and very healthy with traits that are good to pass on to others, there are too many small dragons out there as it is and this is not the norm for dragons either.

I am curious, if Rex is only 1 inch larger than an 8 month old, what length and weight are they?

Just for general reference, this is what a breedable female should look like body and health wise to support being gravid

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www.reptilerooms.com

Keep in mind the info I attached from the breeder came after I began challenging wether it was "really" safe to keep them together and if she had been tested or if there were any health issues with her other herps.

As I've stated before Ginger is and has always been in quarantine (except for the 3 brief encounters that we stood over and watched) - all before I started posting here.

She's steadily getting more active and now that she's eating she will hopefully be ready to give me something to take to the vet Monday. I will give her a warm bath to help things out tomorrow. Rex is no problem,,, he waits until we take him out of his cage to exercise,,, then his does his business on our floor - not his - ALWAYS! I'll be having him tested too.

Re: SIZE - Ginger is 15.5 " (183g)
Rex is 16.5" (?g)
Ginger has the same physical attributes as the example you posted. Rex's arms aren't as plump but his tail and belly are.

Overall he is considerably larger framed.

Again, thanks for the info... sorry we started off with a rock in our shoe

it will affect the testing, especially if treated.

That is very small dragons at that weight, the one in the picture I posted earlier is almost 600 grams and 20 inches. I think given her the time to mature and seeing the wieght and build diffference she will have then, you will see putting them together now was not something that should be done.
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www.reptilerooms.com

part care a lot about their dragons and others' dragons also. Money is the last thought for many... lol, I can give you my vet bills for all the rehabs we take in and get back on track and then send out at no charge to good homes!

There are others on here that I hold their dragons just as precious as mine.. we come to know and care about them, Gunilla's Teo,Disa,Cicero and sweet Olga, Joels Sandy, cokeman and Tank, Matthew's Amber, Annie and Foster, xta's Flapjack, Flavia in Singapores rescued dragon, Franks handicapped one, Christy's Ozzie, Grimdog with Summer and many more, they have their own personality and we grow to look forward to stories and pictures of them. SOme have dome back from huge odds against them.

We have sent care packages all over the country and world for others that could not get things that might help their dragons because we do care and Airborne loves me!!

For many of us it is about the dragons and learning and contributing to the growing knowledge of this most recent in captivity species... so little is really know, so much more to learn and each month new things are found out or surface. We may get a bit to passionate at times about the known things that do work that are not used. Sorry for that
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www.reptilerooms.com

"As I've stated before Ginger is and has always been in quarantine (except for the 3 brief encounters that we stood over and watched) - all before I started posting here. "

There may be some confusion here. Quarantine means to prevent ALL contact so that they can't tranfer diseases. It doesn't matter how closely you watch them, they can still give all kinds of bacteria to each other that you cannot see. So just by letting them even touch once, much less putting her in his cage a few times, they have already been exposed to each other's bacteria. You also mentioned that one time he "attacked" her. Assuming this means he bit her, that's another super easy way for bacteria to be transferred.

In fact if I were you, I would wait a while now to make sure Rex is all clear before you give him to someone else. If Ginger has something that you don't know about and has given it to him, then you might be giving your friend a lot of unsuspected vet expenses.

I'm not trying to be negative, just my 2 cents. Kudos to you for putting up with us, and continuing to spend time learning what you can here. There is so much to know about these guys, two years and I still learn something new all the time. Keep it up.