Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi gang,

A lot of the pictures of "Okeetees" I see look exactly like my "normal". What distinguishes a true "Okeetee?"

I already know the story of the lineage in South Carolina, etc. I guess what I mean is, what in the appearance of the snake is defining "Okeetee" rather than run of the mill, though beautiful, "normal?"

Thanks for educating this new corn guy. : )

well as you know okeetees are a locality. What defines an okeetee is the think black bands that are on the outside of the saddels.

i think....... please correct me if im wrong any of the "experenced ones"

RV
-----
0.0.1 03'Amel (1st)
0.0.1 03'Normal (2nd)
to be add in january (pos.)

what ever kind a corn catches my eye at the show

I think oketees have the deep red saddles with thick black outlines on a bright orange background
-----
0.1 Tigergenesis "Kelly"
1.0 Ball Python "Aragorn"
1.0 Kenyan Sand Boa "Gimli"
0.1 Australian Cattle Dog/Pointer "Kira"

yeah thats what i meant red saddels with a black outline with a bright orange body. lol thanx for the correction
-----
0.0.1 03'Amel (1st)
0.0.1 03'Normal (2nd)
to be add in january (pos.)

what ever kind a corn catches my eye at the show

It really depends on who you ask. What is most widely accepted is the idea that there are "Okeetee Locality" animals and "Okeetee Phase". "Okeetee Locality" would have to be captured (and proven how, I have no idea) in a certain range near the Okeetee hunt club. Now where and how large exactly this range is, also depends on indivdual "preferences". Even locality people can't agree on if any snake found in this "range" is qualifies as an Okeetee or if it has have the right "look". Discussing locality is just a huge bowl of worms no one can seem to agree on. I personally believe there is no such thing as a PURE locality animal, and if you buy a PURE locality animal that notion is only as good as that persons word. And you have to believe that snakes stay with in boundries. Confused yet? Ok, here is the easy part... "Okeetee Phase" is the term used most often, the title is given to corns with a certain look regardless of thier ancestory. Once again, however, how to define an "Okeetee Phase" can be debated. The most widely accepted is that they have the trademark thick black borders, deep red/maroon saddles, and a rich orange background. I often see animals labeled as Okeetees that I would not label as such myself.

but true Okeetee has traceable lineage back to that area of South Carolina while an "Okeetee phase" does not. I agree with you also that I have seen some pretty unexceptional "Okeetee" corns as well. However, if they have the locality then they are Okeetee regardless of their looks. An "Okeetee phase" only has to exhibit the characteristics that made the corns from the Okeetee area popular (bold colors with thick black borders around the saddles), regardless of where they are from. IMO, looks are the only thing an "Okeetee Phase" has going for it, so they better be exceptional. What good is an ugly "Okeetee phase" with no looks or lineage?? The problem with me lies in the fact that a lot of folks are probably calling non-locality, ordinary run of the mill normal corns "Okeetees" or "Okeetee phase" in an effort to sell them. I think some folks may be calling their normals Okeetees unintentionally thinking that is what a normal phase corn is called regardless of locality/looks. If I am buying an Okeetee, Jasper County, etc., corn, I want proof of lineage. If I am buying an "Okeetee Phase", I want pics of the parents or older siblings to unsure as much as possible my baby will grow into a screamer.

Not an "expert" or trying to rattle anyones chains, just giving my opinion-LOL!!

KevinM

I know what you mean about rattling chains, this can be such a touchy subject.LOL. However, when you say "proof" what consitutes "proof" to you? I don't mean this to be insulting, just a good natured debate. How do you prove an animal is from a certain locality without catching it yourself? And how do you respond to the fact that before the corn market became popular, some breeders dumped thier extra stock (from all different localities) in the same area as the Hunt Club?
Again, no offense meant, I am just curious how people view these questions. And what does an ugly "Okeetee Locality" have going for it?

Hi Carol,

Proof is a touchy subject as well. Generally I know some breeders personally and where they caught their stock, or the reputable breeders they got it from. I currently have a pair of cb03 F2 Jasper County "Okeetee" corns. I got them from a breeder friend specifically because I knew where their grandparents were captured from. They may not grow into the screamer corns people are looking for, but should be nicer than normal and are actually Okeetee locality animals. As far as other breeders that are unknown, its easy enough to ask questions about where their stock came from, etc., to base a decision. If they don't know, simply call them Okeetee because thats what the parents were called when bought, etc., then I can easily pass and not buy them. Still, it is a risk.

And yes, there has been genetic pollution in the wild populations from the Okeetee region from releases of captive bred stock into the area. How that will affect future populations is unknown to me. However, I think nature may remove some of those genes (like amelanism) because they won't survive in the wild. The actual animals released may not have been able to survive in the wild as well, further diluting potential pollution.

Just MHO!!! LOL
KevinM

I would take a beautiful thick black bordered stand out looking "Okeetee Phase" over a "Proven????" ho-hum looking Okeetee from the Hunt Club area anyday. To me it would be much too difficult to 'prove' lineage of any snake without my catching it myself or unless I knew the person I was dealing with very, very well.
And, on the subject of 'true' locality okeetees. I often wondered something. The true locality people say that unless the snake is caught 'ON' the Hunt Club property it is not an Okeetee, even if a stand out beauty was caught on the other side of the road off the property (like snakes don't travel..hmmm). So, if a snake not caught or 'born' on the club property is not an Okeetee, how does the offspring born in the person's home, out of the caught parents, but not on the Hunt Club property be named Locality Okeetee corns. Doesn't that go against the 'born on - caught on' theory of what constitutes an Okeetee. Wouldn't they still be 'Okeetee Phase" out of locality Okeetee's? Just food for thought.
As I said, I personally would go for a great looking 'Okeetee phase' and be very content. But that is only my opinion.

First off, I believe you can no longer legally collect animals on the actual Okeetee Hunt Club property, but I may be wrong on this. I also believe most of the corns from the region are actually Jasper County (which is the county the club is in)with the acceptance that corns do "cross the road"-LOL!! There are just too many "Okeetee" corns caught from a larger area than just the hunt club. Several breeders will actually post where in the region the stock is from (ie., Haphazard Road, X town South Carolina, etc.).

As far as locality with CB animals, as long as the founding stock was captured there, then all babies produced are still considered that locality because there was no mixing of genetic material from other areas. It still doesn't mean they will all be screamers. However, remember that breeders generally only line breed the best of the best from the localities and cull out the ugly ones to further enhance the locality/looks issue.

And I would take a screamer "Okeetee Phase" over an ugly locality animal too. However, its nice when both locality and killer looks are combined IMO. Better yet would be to catch my own screamers from the area!!!

KevinM

I believe it would be impossible to prove an animal coming from the hunt club could have it's entire lineage traced back to the hunt club so the idea of a "pure" locale specific okeetee is just about a myth.
Some say only the hunt club and some say Jasper County, it is still a matter of which side of the road so-to-speak.
But if someone has a snake that has any ancestry connected to the area they are considered Okeetee. But only the ones with "the look" are called Okeetee.
What you have to do is trust your sources. If a snake comes from parents that have some connection to the locale and have the look then that snake is an Okeetee.
If breeder "A" or "B" say their snakes are Okeetees and if you trust the breeders, the snake is an Okeetee.
If breeder "C" has a few Okeetees that he acquired from "A" and "B" and they give him offspring, then those are Okeetees.
Not every Okeetee is going to be the most spectacular snake you will ever see but that doesn't change the fact that they are Okeetees.
Take the photos of my Okeetees, below. The babies are not the most striking Okeetee babies out there but due to the fact they came from Okeetees, from reputable sources, they are Okeetees. The yearling came from one of the best known names in the business and if he says Okeetee it is Okeetee.
So you must be able to trust your sources.

-----
Remember, my posts are MY opinion only.
Jimmy (draybar)

All the replys to my question have been thoughtful and helpful. It is also clear that people are passionate about the "designations" applied to their babies. I think just about all corns are beautiful and I'm thankful for my normal/Okeetee/Jasper County/mutt Maizey. : )

Happy Herpin' New Year

Ken