I had my Uro for about 3 months now, He hasnt shed yet, he seems like he got a little bigger, well fatter. He eats great, he is active and he is lazy when he wants to be.
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How slow do Uro's grow?
RedAlkiestarte
Jan 05, 2004 01:35 AM
Replies (43)
DeadFrog
Jan 05, 2004 05:07 AM
.
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Mark Martinez
University of Florida
robyn@ProExotics
Jan 05, 2004 06:55 PM
if properly setup, a lizard, including Uros, should clip along at a steady pace. we have seen 3-4 gram hatchlings grow to over 100 grams within 4 months, and they continue to grow.
if kept with substandard temps, in poor setups, which "fuel" (or rather don't fuel) a slow or non-existant metabolism, of course something will grow slow. if kept properly, it is exactly the opposite.
to say they grow "insanely slow" is simply incorrect, and more reflective of the husbandry than the animal's potential.
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robyn@proexotics.com
DeadFrog
Jan 05, 2004 07:23 PM
Hey now, i go out of my way for my guys, as most people who have read my posts know.
Anyway, sure they can put on weight, and sure they grow fast when young, but I was saying that as far as length or shedding they do not grow at nearly the rate that, say, bearded dragons do. It's not even close.
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Mark Martinez
University of Florida
robyn@ProExotics
Jan 05, 2004 07:54 PM
are you sure? at the rate we are going, and judging from our experience breeding other lizards, i am guessing that our Uros will be breeding at 12 months old. that is awfully "quick" when measured against old school rates, and at about a bearded, monitor, lizard pace...
they don't necessarily grow bigger, but growth rates (to a mature size) are different than size potentials.
i wasn't giving you a hard time, just challenging accepted standards and thought 
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robyn@proexotics.com
gromph_baenre
Jan 06, 2004 07:50 AM
Robyn,
I have followed your input and theories in this forum for quite sometime. I commend you on your desire to share information with others about the experiences you are having with your current group of Uro's. Your challenge to established practices and husbandry is provocative, however, I feel its within the early stages of implementation. Your growth rates are exceptional in comparison to published findings. What are the long term effects going to be? Could this jump in growth rates cause unforseeable problems in the future?
I have a mere three Uro's and they all were being sold as captive bred at the facilities I purchased them from. The first one was quite the challenge, as he was my first endeavor with Uro's. But after alot of tweeking and purchasing the necessary equipment(temp gun, appropriate lighting, etc etc )he is and continues to thrive. What do I have him on for substrate? Pool filtration sand. Works great and no dust involved with it either. Would I change a thing in his current setup. Not on your life.
The point of this reply, and it is by no means a criticism, is that I believe you are approaching this from a strictly breeder view, wereas most people approach husbandry from a pet view. I will stick with having slow and steady growth, and avoid leaps and bounds.
Again, my congratulations on your current Uro project, and when I decide to make the leap to ackies, your business will be the first I make a call to. Wishes for continued success and a happy new year.
Best regards
gromph baenre
robyn@ProExotics
Jan 06, 2004 05:47 PM
thanks for the follow up and support : )
where are you from Gromph? that is an interesting name, nothing like Joe Smith : )
regarding your post...
certainly our setups are breeder-style setups, not real visual, not real decorative (externally) but they accomplish the same goals that you should have in a pet setup, and that is ideal health for your animal. the only key difference may be size (perhaps related to the size of the group, say 5 animals versus 1) or breeing plans.
we are still new to the Uros, but as i have explained in the past, we have experience with other lizards. i think it is largely the same, especially from a theory standpoint.
in the monitor world we have seen 10 successive generations of animals raised in this fashion, with terrific fast growth, breeding potential at one year, and lots of reproduction and life events. thousands and thousands of animals. healthy ones. (i am referring to the most successful monitor breeders doing 10 generations of a monitor line, we have done 3 and 4 ourselves)
in a decades' time, we STILL see great healthy animals that have lived this life, there is no indication of this type of husbandry being "hard" on them at all.
there is no "secret" to it, it isn't like we are shooting them with steroids to get some abnormal, super result, we are simply trying to MAXIMIZE their own natural potential, let them do what they are capable of, to the best of their abilities.
now, you don't have to match our growth 100% (or 120%), but even 80% would be better than 10 or 20%. (i have no idea what your particular growth is Gromph)
one of my main points in all these posts is that current accepted Uro husbandry "standards" (like you find on caresheets) is woefully inadequate. it is actually hampering the progress, growth and health of the animals!
it is not like the Uro have "gears" and we are in fifth, while so many folks are putting along harmlessly in first. but rather, this "putting" along is actually just barely keeping the animals alive! i think it is punishment, not patience, that the Uros are being subjected to.
like i said, achieving 80% of our growth i think would be acceptable, but you are talking about folks that have babies and juveniles adding single digit gram growth per month! that is ridiculous, and something is obviously wrong and inadequate. and when i look at how folks set up their animals, as someone experienced with keeping and breeding lizards, it is easy to see the problems, and easy to point out the hang ups that cause such slow, or non-existant growth.
i want to talk and exchange about THRIVING Uros, but we are still stuck on talking about NOT KILLING Uros.
that slow and steady growth is not a "pace" that is healthy, rather it is a forced situation because the animals lack access to the tools they need. temps, hydration, security, food, etc. they grow slow because their metabolisms are barely moving, which is tied into all sorts of other problems like lack of appetite, stress, and lack of a proper setup.
i would guess that your animal is moving along slow and steady because that is ALL your setup allows for. you said you use a dry sand (among other aspects of your setup) and i know what a dry sand does, and how it contributes to poor growth. it is one thing to provide all the tools and let the animal make the choices, and quite another to limit access to tools (food, humidity, temps, substrate, burrows, etc) and restrict the animal's progress.
try and challenge your own setup like Peter has done. do one simple rubbermaid type setup with some good diggable soil, an elevated basking spot with great temps, and see how your animals react. i would bet that once you see the two setups side by side, you would not want to return to your former standard.
once you see animals thrive, really thrive, and achieve healthy life events, you won't turn back.
one last note on breeder vs. pet setups. just because you are keeping a pet, with no intention to breed, DOES NOT give you a pass to keep the animal poorly. regardless of what we knew when we acquired the Uros, it is our responsibility as pet owners to provide for them in the best way possible.
you can't say "oh, that is too hard, i don't get the soil thing" (with only a week's worth of effort) because you have CHOSEN a desert lizard for your pet. YOU (the pet owner) made the choice, MEET ITS NEEDS! you can't just default into keeping it like your favorite leopard gecko or cornsnake and be done with it, ya know?
i can't buy a pony, and then keep it in the spare bedroom, the Simpson's already tried that, and look what happened to them
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robyn@proexotics.com
WaGuy82
Jan 06, 2004 08:05 PM
Robyn
I have a couple questions. Have you looked at growth rates of uros in their native habitat? If you have, how would you think yours stack up? I'm asking because these animals have adapted to their native habitats and their ideal growth rate would be what's found in the wild.
I know in regards to tortoises, more specifically, sulcatas, having an accelerated growth rate while young is not a good thing because they're being fed a nutrient dense food as opposed to high fiber grasses. I know that you deal mostly with canivorous animals (I have six ackies) and this isn't usually a problem.
Of course this has nothing to do with husbandry, but more on diet, but it still brings up growth rate so I'm curious as to what your opinions are, because accelerated growth can be both and negative and/or positive thing.
I keep my ackies, and tortoise on dirt, and I will be getting a pair of undersized egyptian uros next week and will be keeping them in a 4 feet trough with a dirt/sand mix. While I don't have much experience with it, I still believe that sand or other substrates gives more room for error. I love using dirt, but it's not something that will work for everyone, because there's less room for errors. It's harder to keep the substrate moist than to keep it dry.
robyn@ProExotics
Jan 06, 2004 09:28 PM
the "ideal" growth rate is what is found in the wild? really? have you thought about that?
by the same logic, then we should kill off 70-80% of captive Uro babies because there is a high mortality rate in the wild as well... (but that's a crappy ideal, and poor logic)
wild Uros have to battle predators, parasites, droughts, floods, food shortages, other Uros, and human collection, among other things. that doesn't really sound ideal, does it?
each Uro has potential stored within it by nature, a vast potential. nature's hope is that at least a few Uros in a given group will survive life's deadly obstacle course long enough to reproduce. there is nothing "ideal" about that at all.
the Uros themselves have evolved and adapted to live well in their given environment, and then battle all the troubles. your goal as a reptile keeper/hobbyist/enthusiast should be to provide as ideal an environment as possible, without the troubles, and let them do their thing.
our human population is based on a few of us getting hit by buses everyday. that doesn't make kissing the underside of a bus ideal.
if you are involved in the market, perhaps you have seen the thousands of wild caught Uros that come in all the time, or perhaps you have seen the photos of the markets still in Afrika that sell Uros. none of those animals look anything close to ideal. most look "mostly dead", and you know what they say about "mostly dead"...
as for your second piece of mind bending logic...
just because soil is "hard to do" doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't do it...
newspaper is easy, it is easy to clean, easy to keep dry (so what?), so once again, following your train of thought, it must be the best thing ever.
if you can't keep your soil moist, that is your shortcoming, you just need to learn more about it (cut down ventilation perhaps).
if keeping Uros properly is "so hard", folks should get rid of their animals and instead consider taxidermy, the husbandry is easier this way.
i don't mean to be short, and it isn't personal, but good grief, i have spent an hour and half typing on this forum today, and it seems to sail over the heads of folks who don't seem to want to stop and think...
stuck in a rut! stuck in a rut! think outside the dumb box!
when we were busy breeding monitors successfully, we had a large group of Gilas set up really poorly. newspaper substrates, thin aspen or cypress, feeding once a week, keeping them just like kingsnakes, breeding poorly, just like everyone did it, the "accepted way". really REALLY stupid!
one day walking by the Gila setups, Chad and i literally received a cinder block thought to the brain, and we felt like complete idiots keeping Gilas like anything else than the lizards they are. keeping them just like the monitors, just like the Uros, just like Beardeds (a whole 'nother forum), just like any other lizard.
i took that thought, and tried to re-think all of the animals.
apparently you are a monitor guy (Ackies), have you heard the monitor expression of "reading" the animals? if you read the Uros, set up in poor, but accepted standard, conditions, they are SCREAMING at you to fix it and provide a setup much more along the lines of a monitor setup than a goofy kingsnake!
this is the most frustrating part. the Uros are telling EVERYONE what needs to be done, it is just that most folks are not able to hear and read them.
i can read posts on this forum, just a short paragraph, and read the owner's Uros through his own poorly written post, it isn't hard AT ALL once you learn to do it.
wake up folks, hear what is going on...
(and get rid of the dry assss substrates!)
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robyn@proexotics.com
WaGuy82
Jan 06, 2004 10:15 PM
Robyn
What I was trying to say was that dirt is great. That's pretty obvious, but at the same time there can be detrimental results if done wrong. For the most dedicated uro keepers, that's not an issue, but for some, it's better for their uros if they're kept on newspaper, sand, whatever. And I say that because when some dirt gets too dry, it becomes as hard as cement. I am not saying that dirt is inferior, it is way better, but I also think that some uros will be better if kept off dirt due to their keepers' quest for convenience.
And as far as my comments regarding growth. I suppose I should give a better example. With sulcata tortoises, having a fast growth rate at a young age tends to lead to a deformed carapace that is not found at all in nature. Only, sulcatas raised in captivity shows this deformity. I believe the consensus is that is it due to a high nutrient/low fiber diet.
And far as imports go, I think they shape they come in are strictly due to the conditions they're kept in until the reach the hands of the hobbyists.
DeadFrog
Jan 07, 2004 02:08 AM
Robyn,
I agree with what a lot of the others have said. Also I look at it this way: I love my pets, I try to do the best for them, and I spare no expense when the need arises. And I am a poor college student. I think there are a lot of reasons mine grow the way they do, but I assure that I do all that I can to alleviate any restrictions and give all the benefits I can offer.
I think I'd rather mine grow nice and slow. Hey, If I give them a good diet, good heat and UV, good space, vitamins, etc. and this is how they grow, then so be it.
Robyn's cool, she just cares so much she may get worried, we've all been guilty of that.
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Mark Martinez
University of Florida
Spankenstyne
Jan 07, 2004 03:13 AM
Robyn is a man.
Mistake i've seen before though, and understandable.
DeadFrog
Jan 07, 2004 04:44 AM
whoops
lol
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Mark Martinez
University of Florida
DeadFrog
Jan 07, 2004 02:10 AM
I also originally meant to say that Uros also grow slow in relation to bearded dragons in the sense that raising bearded dragons to grow fast is much EASIER than raising uros fast.
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Mark Martinez
University of Florida
robyn@ProExotics
Jan 07, 2004 02:40 AM
i gotta get off to bed, but a quick comment on that...
tortoises are not lizards. we are talking about lizard husbandry, not tortoises. i don't know squat about tortoises, but i wouldn't try and keep them like monitors.
that isn't even apples and oranges, that is apples and antelopes
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robyn@proexotics.com
ingo
Jan 08, 2004 01:36 AM
Sorry, I disagree. Uros and tortoises is like cows and horses. Uros and monitors is like cows and dogs.
There is a lot of evidence that tortoises from arid regions have very similar nutritional needs than Uros from similar habitats.
And since there is A LOT of published information, scientific and hobby, weh should make use of it.
In fact, I am convinced that there is much more similarity between apt tortoise keeping and apt Uro keeping than between apt Uro keeping and apt monitor keeping.
At least I guarantee that its worth the effort to read a few dozend scientific papers on desert tortoise nutrition if you want to keep Uros.
Thats not just gut feeling. Beleive me.
Ci@o
Ingo
azteclizard
Jan 08, 2004 06:55 AM
"And since there is A LOT of published information, scientific and hobby, weh should make use of
it."
Could you point us in a direction, like giving us some references to thr info you speak of. Maybe the jounals to search. I feel that you are way off with your comparison. If I were to come on the forum and make the claims you are I would certainly back it up with references. On the basis of taxonomy alone, Uros and monitors are much closer related than Uro's and tortoises. Uro's behaviors much closer resembles a monitors also. I still feel Robyn is on the right track. In fact, I feel he is on a collision course with some great results and insights with respect to Uro's. I hope when that time comes that some of us are willing to eat crow.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me
ingo
Jan 08, 2004 08:23 AM
Uros and monitors are more closely related than Uros and tortoises. No doubt. But tortoises and Uros do share very similar ecological niches, wehreas monitors have chosen a very different niche.
So a high degree of convergence should be expected between Uro and tortoise nutrition. And since tortoises are still reptiles, they should serve as a way better model than a more closely related carnivore.
All available research on Uro nutrition strenghtens this hypothesis.
And there is a lot out there to read. Just read yourself through a few of these papers. I guarantee, it helps you in understanding the biology of vegetarian desert reptiles.
Ci@o
Ingo
Allen, Mary E., and Duane E. Ullrey. (1995)Calcium, phosphorus, and Vitamin D in reptile nutrition. Proceedings of the Twentieth Annual Symposium 1995 DESERT TORTOISE COUNCIL PUBLICATIONS p. 62.
Avery, Harold W., and Todd C. Esque. (1996) Nutritional research of the desert tortoise: synopsis of a workshop. (abstract) Proceedings of the Twentieth Annual Symposium 1996 DESERT TORTOISE COUNCIL PUBLICATIONS p. 49.
Baer, David J., and Olav T. Oftedal. (1995)Effect of temperature and diet composition on nutrient utilization in herbivorous reptiles. Proceedings of the Twentieth Annual Symposium 1995 DESERT TORTOISE COUNCIL PUBLICATIONS pp. 54-57.
Barboza PS. (1995) Digesta passage and functional anatomy of the digestive tract in the desert tortoise (Xerobates agassizii).
J Comp Physiol . ;165(3):193-202
Bentley, A., Toddes, B. & Wrigth, K. (1997) Evolution of Diets for Herbivorous and Omnivorous Reptiles at the Philadelphia Zoo: From Mystery Toward Science Proceedings/NAG;1-9
Berry KH, Christopher MM.(2001) Guidelines for the field evaluation of desert tortoise health and disease.
J Wildl Dis. Jul;37(3):427-50.
Christopher MM. (1999) Physical and biochemical abnormalities associated with prolonged entrapment in a desert tortoise.
J Wildl Dis. Apr;35(2):361-6.
DENNERT, C.(2003) Ernährung von Landschildkröten, Münster (NTV)
DEVENDER, Th. Van (Ed.)(2002) The Sonoran Desert Tortoise Natural History, Biology, and Conservation, Tucson
Dirk, F. (1996)Dornschwänze der Gattung Uromastyx im Terrarium; DATZ; 498-500
Fowler, 1980.Comparison of respiratory infection and Hypovitaminosis A in Desert Tortoises in: R.J.Montali und G Migaki (HRSG): The comparative pathology of Zoo animals; Smithsonian Institution press, Washington; D.C.93-97
Gray, R. (1995) Captive husbandry of ornate spiny-tailed lizards. Reptiles Magazine Vol. 3 (3): 64-77.
GRAY, R. L.(2003) Desert Lizards: Captive Husbandry and Propagation, Malabar
Hailey A. (1998)The specific dynamic action of the omnivorous tortoise Kinixys spekii in relation to diet, feeding pattern, and gut passage.
Physiol Zool. Jan-Feb;71(1):57-66.
Kohel KA, MacKenzie DS, Rostal DC, Grumbles JS, Lance VA. (2001) Seasonality in plasma thyroxine in the desert tortoise, Gopherus agassizii.
Gen Comp Endocrinol. Feb;121(2):214-22.
Küppers-Heckhausen, C. (1993) Zur Lebensweise des Indischen Dornschwanzes; DATZ; 572-574
MCARTHUR, S.: (1996) Veterinary Management of Tortoises and Turtles, London
Mendelssohn, H. and A. Bouskila. (1989) Comparative ecology of Uromastyx aegyptius and Uromastyx ornatus in Southern Israel and in Southern Sinai. Synopsis from the World Congress of Herpetology. September 1989 at Univ. of Kent, Canterbury, U.K
MEYER, M.L2001)PraxisRatgeber Schildkrötenernährung, Frankfurt am Main; Ed. Chimaira
NRC. 1987. Vitamin Tolerance of Animals. NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES, National Research Council, Washington D.C
ORTLEPP-SCHUMACHER, E. & R. SCHUMACHER: (1988)Uromastix acanthinurus
BELL 1825 - Nachzucht der Afrikanischen Dornschwanzagame; Sauria 4 ; 17-19
PFLUGMACHER, S(1984) Über die Haltung des afrikanischen Dornschwanzes - Uromastyx acanthinurus; Sauria4; 33-34
Richter, E. (1966)Uromastyx acanthinurus 13½ Jahre in Gefangenschaft; DATZ; 25-27
Schmidt W. Meyer M., Jasser-Häger I., Vinke S. (2003) Artgerechte Ernährung von Landschildkröten;DATZ; 60
Thatcher, T. (1990) The reproduction in captivity of the North African spiny-tailed lizard, Uromastyx acanthinurus, British Herpetological Society Bulletin 40:9-13.
Uva B, Vallarino M, Mandich A, Isola G. (1982) Plasma aldosterone levels in the female tortoise Testudo hermanni Gmelin in different experimental conditions.
Gen Comp Endocrinol. 1982 Jan;46(1):116-23.
Voigt WG, Johnson CR. (1976) Aestivation and thermoregulation in the Texas tortoise, Gopherus berlandieri.
Comp Biochem Physiol A. Jan;53(1):41-4
Wheeler, S. Captive reproduction and neonate husbandry of the spiny-tailed Agama, Uromastyx acanthinurus. IN Proceedings of the 14th International Herpetological Symposium (ed) A. Zulich, pp 35-38.
Wiesner CS, Iben C. (3003) Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata).
J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). Feb;87(1-2):66-74.
WILMS, T. & F. HULBERT(1995) Das Portrait: Uromastyx princeps O'SHAUGHNESSY Sauria 03;1-2
WILMS, T. (1995): Uromastyx acanthinura BELL Sauria Suppl;333-334
Wilms, T. (2001) Dornschwanzagamen, Lebensweise Pflege Zucht; Herpeton Verlag
gromph_baenre
Jan 08, 2004 12:06 PM
Ingo,
Thank you for the references on various sources and associated papers.
Best regards,
Carson
gromph_baenre
Jan 07, 2004 08:37 AM
Robyn,
Thank you for the feedback and your observations and experiences with Uro's thus far. My apologies for not properly introducing myself, as Gromph is an alias I have used for years from my BBS and Usenet days. My name is Carson Grindstaff and I reside in Tennessee.
Your challenge to mix up some dirt in a rubbermaid tub has already been started. Just no live animals in it until I can be around to observe the animal and ensure its safety. I just do not wish to have a "test setup" that due to my ignorance cause undue harm to one of my pets.
Again, thanks for your continued elaboration on your experiences and observations. It does make for interesting reading and provokes the "outside of the tank/box" thought.
Best regards.
tgreb
Jan 06, 2004 09:30 AM
I have seen eagyptius go from a 3 inch hatchling to 22 inches in one year provided the proper conditions.
Tom
robyn@ProExotics
Jan 06, 2004 09:33 PM
great progress! but how twisted for someone to call that "unhealthy" and instead prefer a non-existant or severely retarded growth rate...
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robyn@proexotics.com
ingo
Jan 09, 2004 07:00 AM
Thats the wriong vocabulary.
Nobody wants a "non-existant or severely retarded growth rate", but I think we should try to reach similar growht rates than occur in nature.
Who are we to be able to assume, we could switch conditions to a state which allow a non natural growth rate and guarantee that thsi is not harmful on the long run for the animals?
Where are your 20 year old uros which had such growth rates?
There is so much expereince with especially herbivorous reptiles outh there which gives evidence that pumped up growth rates are more than just potentially harmful that I think, we should be cautious.
What the heck is the advantage of such rapid growht? Earlier breeidng success?
Why try to acheieve that. Uros have the potential to breed for over 20 years. Why can´t we wait till they reach sexual maturity at normal speed?
How can you say we are still in the early stae of Uro husbandry knowledge and at the same time suggest to push up growth rates to the max?
You may try such things once you have gathered a lot of knowledge concerning Uro metabolism and robustness. But you state yourself, that we do not yet have reached that stage.
Thats a contradiciton which harbours risk for the animals.
Patience is hardly ever detrimental. Speed, hurry and trying to be better than nature often is!
Ci@o
Ingo
ingo
Jan 07, 2004 01:19 AM
I dare to disagree. 100g in 4 months! Thats everything but natural. Look at their growth rate in the wild. Thats what we shoult try to imitate. For most Uro species in the wild even 3 year old specimens have to be considered subadult and are significantly smaller than adults.
And look at the yearlings in the wild-even for the big species, htey hardly ever have reached 100g!
Uros are adapted to these growth conditions.
They are desert animals which very rarely experience lots of food.
Power feeding, skipping of hibernation etc can be very detrimental to their metabolism and I bet that such animals are much more prone to liver or kidney failure than those which were raised slowly.
Never forget, that food is everything but plenty for the most time of the year in any Uro habitat.
So my recipe is: Give them plenty of light (strong metal halides), heat and space and keep them short in food. For the first year increase relative portion of insdect food, but still keep dietary fibres high in the plant matter. Have a close eye on Ca/P ratios and D3 supplementation. Always hibernate-even the tiniest hatchling and:..... be patient.
Uros have the potential to live significantly longer than 20 years. I doubt that the power raised specimens will see their tenth year.
Just my 2 cts.
Ingo
gromph_baenre
Jan 07, 2004 09:23 AM
Ingo,
Interesting analysis. I tend to agree with your observations, but I am always open to other peoples views and experiences. Your statements seem logical to what I have read from those in the know. That is to say those who are breeding and have way more years involvement with uromastyx than I. Thank you for your two cents and by all means continue to relay your observations with your pets/specimens.
Best regards.
Carson
tgreb
Jan 07, 2004 01:30 PM
like Frank Retes. HEHE. Anyway I think what people are trying to say is that there is more than one way to acheive the desired results. One is not nec. wrong, just different. Play sand and other substrates are proven mediums. Although I agree with your theory that deep diggable(is that a word) soil may be psycologically better for a lizard I don't think play sand or news paper will have any negative effects on them. These animals are capable of incredible growth under optimal conditions. Whether or not it will have any effects on their longgevity I don't think is really known for sure. I know there was a study on eastern fence lizards that proved that the ones in the south that did not hibernate lived an average 2-3 years where the northern ones that hibernated lived 5-6 years.
Ingo I don't think we are talking about "pumped up lizards" here, or at least I wasn't. The eagyptius I mentioned was kept at optimal conditions. Ambient temp 90, basking 140, night temps 68-70. Fed everyday supplemented once weekly. Light consisted of halogen floods and cool white flourescents. ALso for Robyn's sake there was no soil. It was kept in a plywood enclosure(topless box) with 2x2 patio blocks as hides and basking spots and a newspaper substrate. Not hibernated though. Anyway both you guys need to come back on this forum after 20-25 years and post your findings.
Tom Greb
robyn@ProExotics
Jan 07, 2004 02:11 PM
there is a lot to what Frank says : ) i try and take what Frank offers, absorb it, try it myself, learn about it, combine it with our own experiences, and then spread the word without straight mimicking him like so many others do...
what are proven Uro results? "some results" do not equal "great results". i am theorizing that the current accepted results will be shown to be woefully inadequate in a few years, if folks would start keeping the Uros like the lizards they are, and get up to date with current "state of the art" lizard husbandry. heck, folks thought they kept monitors great in the 80's and early 90's, and now we look at those methods and laugh, because they are just so out of whack, and in retrospect, OBVIOUSLY out of whack.
"accepted standards" are just a big rut that folks are stuck in for lack of a better understanding or path.
for many years we used cypress mulch exclusively for our monitors. Frank said dirt this, soil that, it is easily superior, blah blah blah. but what did he know? i totally doubted him (while at the same time thinking he was a great monitor keeper and breeder).
we had the prettiest, best looking monitors in the country using cypress, i couldn't fathom that a soil substrate, digging, burrowing, would be very beneficial to our current level of achievement...
but then we made the switch with a few cages, and everything steamrolled, and soon all the cages were switched. that is the part that is unexplainable in a post... once you see the animals thrive in a good soil, you won't turn back, because everything else is so inferior and unfair to the animals.
once i got hip to using soil, and spent a year or two learning about it (still learning now 
) it seems light years ahead of what we did with the cypress, and it is hard to stand by and watch folks use inferior substrates (not just cypress, but stuff much worse like newspaper, seed, or grain!)
just because keepers on the forum have Uros that live IN SPITE of the husbandry they offer doesn't make it acceptable, nor am i saying that we have solved this puzzle 100%. but if we are going to keep captive animals, let's keep fish in water, birds with seeds, and lizards like lizards!
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robyn@proexotics.com
tgreb
Jan 07, 2004 06:28 PM
I think the use of dirt is a great idea as I said before. What I am saying is that it is not the only effective method of husbandry. Who knows if these other substrates are poor husbandry? They have been used in a large colony of very successful breeders with outstanding results so they can not be that bad. I don't know what standards uromastyx have other than what is reported by researchers of wild animals. If I had to go by what is reported I would have to say they were very successful. It sounds as if there was something missing in the husbandry of monitors and Frank found the missing piece of info. Uromastyx are not monitors and are succesfully bred with out the use of large quantities of soil for them to dig burrows in. I am talking breeding every year for many consecutive years. They're not that many large scale breeders of uros out there but I do not think it is because they are hard to breed. Mostly it is just hobbiest with a few animals. The only true large scale breeders I knew were Matt Moyle and Nancy Kingston and they had outstanding success by anyones standards. They sent me their availability list one year and it had over 350 uros on it. The proof was in the numbers(size of clutches, % of animals that produced, and hatch rate) they produced. I guess what I mean is that I don't think the use of soil is going to be a big breakthrough in uro breeding. Sure it offers them enrichment. I guess that is all I can say so I will drop it now as I feel we may be beating a dead dog here. Respectfully Tom Greb. PS what are you doing with diet?
mike3
Jan 07, 2004 09:02 PM
I have a few questions to Robyn. What exactly do you feed your uros on a daily bases. What type of set up do you have, i have 1 foot of digable dirt, 2 basking spots that are elevated 6 inches off the ground by slate and rocks, i feed them collard greens, mustard greens, and endive, They are in a 5 X 4 X 2 foot cage without top. Ambient is 85, basking is 120, night is 65-70.
Why aren't my hatchlings growing as fast as yours. My hatchlings are 6 months old, 5 inches long, and between 23-30 grams.
Also, just because some peoples uros dont grow fast doesn't mean that they are not in proper set-up. i successfuly bred my uros last year and at the momment my female is gravid again. What i dont understand is, if my hatchlings aren't growing fast because they are in the wrong type of set-up, then why are my adults breeding. I thought that you had to have almost perfect set-ups for uros to breed. Also, isn't 5 inches 23-30 grams normal for 6 month old malis?
Also, i think that it is great having hatchlings grow that fast. But, if you are going to breed them when they are only one year old, you will probably have some problems. I know of other breeders that had hatchling ornates grow as fast as yours and they bred at one year of age, but the females would become eggbound. Even though they might be sexually mature, i dont think it would be healthy for the females if they bred at such a young age. Just for some facts they bred without any brumation, and i think one of the females went from 120 to 80 grams after laying the eggs. Well, the breeder that bred them said that even though they are sexually mature and big enough, the female's just cant handle haveing eggs at such a young age. What i am trying to say is, it is great they your hatchlings are growing that fast, but i wouldn't risk breeding them at such a young age, i would wait 1 more year to ensure their health. I am not saying this because it is just because it is my opinion, it was somewhat proven that if you breed ornate females at such a young age they have better chances of problems occering, especially eggbinding. I forgot the breeder's name, but if you want to talk to them or see their web page that gave me the info about the yearly ornates breeding and what happened to one of them females i will get it for you.
-----
Mike
1.1.3 maliensis (Spike, Marshmellow, Brown, Green, Orange)
0.2 Female U. Acanthinurus-Werneri x
0.1 Pit Bull/German Shephard/ Lab/ ect. mix (Kodak) - looks like an over grown toco bell dog.
robyn@ProExotics
Jan 07, 2004 11:54 PM
yes, not to beat a dead horse here...
for the most part, i am pretty much done with this conversation. it is like we are on different planes of understanding here, and we seem to be missing each other. that is fine though too, the exchange has been fun...
i don't think Uros are hard to breed at all. there are SOOO many parallels between the Uros and the monitor world. as we say in the monitor breeding world, getting eggs is easy, hatching healthy babies is tougher. when the Uros are set up and cared for properly, breeding will be easy (relatively). keep that in mind, and in the future, hoping it comes true, maybe we can reflect back on it
or maybe we can reflect back and say "Robyn is a dimwit, and was completely confused!"
but i am confident to move forward, and here's why...
the Uro forum, the posts that are made, the trouble folks have with keeping their animals, breeding strategies, successes and failures, setup discussions, etc., maybe you guys haven't seen it all before, but i have!
this forum is like the monitor forum was 5 or 6 years ago! absolutely true. the keepers on this forum are struggling with the same problems and dilemmas that we dealt with over the years with monitor lizards. the two species are so alike it isn't even funny, that is why i am confident that we can apply our strategies with the Uros and achieve similar results.
your "accepted norms" for Uros (as you have defined "successful" breeding and husbandry) mimic very closely what is now considered "ancient" husbandry and techniques in the monitor world. we had the same discussions (really, same, same, SAME!), only the species name was different. the same arguments, the same "fast growth and breeding can't be healthy" back and forths, the same temperature and soil arguments, really, THE SAME TOPICS, IN THE SAME FORMAT, with largely THE SAME RESULTS. it is literally deja-vu, and that is what drives me so crazy. it is like one of those time travel movies where you go back and want to change the past, but you can't!
i was hoping that some of the monitor breeders might chime in a bit here on the Uro forum and add a voice or two, but they are too busy being caught up in their own monitor discussions (currently neck deep in detailed socializing and pairing theory, and how it pertains to captive lizards, kinda hard to follow, but feel free to take a look at varanus.net).
anyway, i don't wanna type ranting manic posts at 2am anymore, at least for a while, so i will lay back for a bit, and in the meantime, polish up our Uro groups
as Sir Charles said- i might be wrong, but i doubt it!
best of luck to all!
i'm Audi 5000 G!
ps to Tom- diet is currently your basic veggie attack, with supplements, but we are also looking at that now, and trying some different things, with mixed results
-----
robyn@proexotics.com
ingo
Jan 08, 2004 08:40 AM
Hmm..where the monitor forum was 5-6 years ago.
IMHO this Uro forum is where german Uro keepers were 5-6 years ago.
No one doubts that Uro keeping is not rocket science and constant success is not very different.
But you have to do your homework and learn from the experiences which are available.
Once you are willing to do so, Uro breeding is really easy.
Just some ranting 
Ingo
tgreb
Jan 08, 2004 09:37 AM
That is sort of what I was trying to say. The thing about this forum is that there are a bunch of people that come here to learn that have not had the experience of uro hardcore uro keepers worldwide. That is why I think the forum is behind. To tell the truth a lot of the breeders do not have time to visit often. That is no doubt that Europe has always been ahead of the US is keeping and breeding herps. No one hear will print the books in English that are written in German and other. I just had a big dicussion with Bert Langerwerf about this. The new book on horned lizards bu Bertrand Bauer and Richard Montanucci is a prime example. Richard told me they could not get a company to print it in English. Thank goodness we have these forums so we can communicate with each other about. Grenot, Wilms and a couple other PROFFESIONAL European herpetologist have given us so much info on uros we just need to get it out there and use it.
Tom Greb
gromph_baenre
Jan 08, 2004 12:16 PM
"Grenot, Wilms and a couple other PROFFESIONAL European herpetologist have given us so much info on uros we just need to get it out there and use it. "
Tom,
Could you give a pointer as to were one might obtain this info. That is to say, are they listed on websites or would one have to seek this info via a bookstore/local library.
Best regards,
Carson
tgreb
Jan 08, 2004 01:16 PM
Most of them are European and written in different French and German. The closest you might be able to come is at a large university library like University of MI or MI State University that have a large biology department. I know that Bert Landerwerf has them. He got them on his visits to Europe plus he used to live there. I have Wilms book but it does little for me but have good pictures as it is in German. In 2002 I think April Reptilia magazine he has several good articles by Wilms on uromastyx. You could maybe get that through Bibliomania or another natural history book seller. Ingo list a bunch of other good ones in his post with more info some of which you should have no proble getting. Tom
gromph_baenre
Jan 08, 2004 03:13 PM
Tom,
Thanks for your prompt reply. I am already working on Ingo's list, and noticed a number of his references are on the uromastyx homepage here@ kingsnake. Let me rephrase.....I think they are, especially some of the articles by Randall Gray. I appreciate you taking the time to respond and nice to have meet you via this most excellent forum.
Best regards,
Carson
tgreb
Jan 08, 2004 06:46 PM
,
ingo
Jan 08, 2004 01:31 AM
Maybe we should not forget that Uros are NOT monitors.
They not only follow a completely different nutritional strategy but do also differ a lot with respect to other metabolic aspects as well as in activity levels etc etc.
To me its somehwat like comparing dogs and cows. Sorry...
In all cases experienced so far, a BIG Difference was found in the importance of food composition for herbivorius vs carnivorous/insectivorous reptiles.
Also its just not true that there is not much experience in long time Uro keeping available.
Here in Germany there are several keepers who do breed Uros since the 80s, which already is quite some time.
And they DID publish their experiences and they still ARE willing to exchange information.
Also there is a lot of evidence out there that nutritional aspects for Uros tend to be very similar to those for tortoises form arid areas. There is A LOT of experiences and -scientific as well as herpetocultural- papers out there on nutritional aspects of those. Instead of concentrating on monitor experience ...OK maybe not instead, but in addition, we should READ these papers and learn from these experiences!
Would help to save a lot of discussion time.
Composition of natural food and relative amount of food intake of Uros seems to be very similar to those of the mentioned tortoises.
And for the latter it is very clear that power raising can be very detrimental, even if the specimes appear to be healthy for years. The risk of later appearing liver and kidney damage is tremendous. Also much is known about the role and importance of dietary fibers, amount and importance of vitamines and minerals for tortoises.
We shoulöd all be aware of this, read the respective papers and have those in mind when contemplating about Uro husbandry.
Also Thomas Wilms and Coworkers quite intensively studied and still study Uro nutrition the professional scientific way.
Being a biologist myself, I want to underscore the importance of scientific approaches to these questions and the importance of reading the original papers.
IMHO, this is an absolute prerequisite to be able to have a opinion on the topic. A few years of Uro experience do help a lot but are by far not sufficient. Paperwork IS important, believe me.
And for me the state of the science conclusion for Uro husbandry still is:
Sparse feeding, low in protein, rich in dietary fibres. Well balanced mineral/Vitamine supplementation with calculated IU s of the fat soluble vitamines, careful yanalysis of Ca/P ratios (YES, there are tables out there), throrough brumation of even -and especially- the tiniest hatchling of brumating species(!!!!!), lots (!!!!) of brightness and space (55g for adults? NO O O O!!!!) and a controlable hiding system with tunnels which end in caves which gives the Uros the choice and provides different humidity levels-however the latter may look like.
I still prefer the artificial tunnel/hide box system I mentioned before, since its easyly controllable and since not many ceilings do hold the literally tons of dirt, which otherwise would be necessary (I recall that more than 500kg of dirt did not give a layer sufficient for good tunneling in my big tank)
Thats my 2 cts
Ingo
azteclizard
Jan 08, 2004 06:34 AM
"Being a biologist myself, I want to underscore the importance of scientific approaches to these
questions and the importance of reading the original papers."
Well, I'm not a biologist, but I am degreed in biology and nutrition. I think what Robyn is doing is scientific, The contol groups are all the other breeders hubandry and results. We shall see in time how Robyn's groups fare, my money is on his results. I don't think Robyn is "power feeding" his Uro's, he is just offering free choice of food, the are just choosing to eat more. I don't think this is about mimicing growth rates in the wild, it's about expressing genetic potential. What are the long term effects of faster growth rates? I don't know, but I doubt it is risked liver or kidnety damage. There is no evidence linking the two. I have had a conversation with the owner of herpnutrition.com. about the subject and her opinion is interesting. She suspects that these conditions, may be the result of improper hydration through out the reptiles life. In other words, a reptile that is constantly in a minld state of dehydration might be more prone to these problems latter in life. This is true for humans in the case of kidney stones.
later,
Bill
p.s. Robyn, keep up the good work and intreguing dialogue.
-----
Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me
ingo
Jan 08, 2004 08:36 AM
"I don't think Robyn is "power feeding" his Uro's, he is just offering free choice of food, the are just choosing to eat more."
Yes, they definitely do. They have to, because in their habitat they do have to make use of any food and have to eat plenty if plenty is available.
But that is the exception in their habitat. There are many months where food is sparse. And Uros are adapted to such conditions by thausends of years.
"What are the long term effects of faster growth rates? I don't know, but I doubt it is risked liver or kidnety damage."
Why do you doubt this? Its well known form tortoises and green iguanas, that kidney and liver problems as well as gout, obesity and other illnesses in later live are due to power raising.
"She suspects that these conditions, may be the result of improper hydration through out the reptiles life. In other words, a reptile that is constantly in a minld state of dehydration might be more prone to these problems latter in life. This is true for humans in the case of kidney stones. "
Thats nothing new, well known to the communitiy that exceptional well hydration can help to reduce nutritional problems associated with a too rich diet. Especieally chameleon keepers do make use of this to overcome some of the not yet solved problems of chameleon nutrition.
But perfectly hydrating Uros is not easy for most keepers. Too high ambient humidity can cause scale problems, too much drinking water can cause severe digestive problems.
You may be able to balance for too rich food with extremely rich hydration. But why take dot and antidot when its easier to follow the nutritional scheme Uros are adapted to?
From all that experiences with tortoises, iguanas AND UROS out there, I guarantee that power raised non hibernated specimens will have a significantly reduced lifespan in comparison to naturally fed animals
Why should we ignore all information about their nutrition in the wild and try to use their "maximum genetic potential"?
To me this is not the way to go in any animal husbandry.
I have exoperienced a lot of trends and discussions like this in the last 30 years of herping and I have made my experiences. Good ones and bad ones. And as a conclusion from all that and from my scientific background, I absolutely stick to what I said.
If you do not beleive me. Let it stand as my opinion and ignore it.
But this forum is made for exchange of opinions and experiences.
So I won´t stop to offer you my 2 cts, especially when discussions tend to reach a position, wehre I see danger for the animals.
And again, I see a lot of danger. What seems fine and great now can be tomorrows horror.
Ci@o
Ingo
tgreb
Jan 08, 2004 10:31 AM
What are you feeding your uros? And please do not ever stop giving your opinions, experience and knowledge! I have said for along time that the captive diet is too rich and to much water. I have bred chuckwallas for a long time(not 30 years) and I have experimented a lot with different stuff most of which I know is way too rich. The best thing I have seen so far is shake from hay or the hay itself but I think they need even more fiber and less water. The rabbit pellets seem to really turn them off to the food. Any opinions will be appreciated. What is your opinion on dry lentils and peas and seed?
Tom
ingo
Jan 09, 2004 12:55 AM
So here is my feeding regime (for adults!)
Starting after brumation:
February:
Every other day a small portion of dandelion leaves (which can be found at this time) mixed with small carrot pieces and supplemented with fresh wheat germs.
In addition to that red and yellow millet is available all the time mixed with lentils and parrot food.
March:
This is when courtship activities typically begin. I increase variety of fresh veggeis, all taken form the meadow behind our house. Typically the mixture consists of Taraxodon, Salvia, Trifolium, Artemisia, Achillea, Heracleum, Rumex, Ranunculus, Plantago species and the like and supplemented with even more wheat germs. Dry feed is enriched by some beans and a small portion of rabbit pellets, which consist of mainly alfalfa and have a 20% protein content. From time to time I give a single Feeder insect.
April-June:
This is the time of egg production and recovery.
In addition to what I give in March, I give insect food 2-3 times a week ad libitum. I mainly feed roaches, crickets and superworms.
Juli-August:
Like march, but green food is only offered twice a week. Recall that greens are rare in their habitat in summer.
Also the relative portion of Plantago is increased since these plants are comparatively rich in dietary fibres. I do not give insect food any more.
September-Oktober:
I give the same mixture of greens, but dried for 3 days before giving them to the Uros. Dry food stays unchanged.
November:
I feed dried greens once a week and in addition only give millet and some kardi.
December-February. No food, brumation.
All the time:
All dry food is dusted with a mixture of 1 part of calcium citrate with 2 parts of the german Mineral/Vitamine powder "Vitakalk".
All food is mixed with roughly grinded up straw pellets (available here as tortoise food or Horse food) and with Plantago ovata seeds, which both supplement the dietary fibres which are relatively low in the plants available.
Bird grit is constantly available in the tank.
In addition t the mentioned dusting Adults do receive 20 IU liquid D3/kg animal ( I do give the active 1,25 Dihydroxy form, which is not publically available, but Cholecalciferol also works well and is much less toxic)twice a week injected into a small roach which is fed to the respective animal by hand.
Every other day I fill a small cavity on a rock with water. This typically is dried out after 2-3 hours and sometimes the Uros drink from it and sometimes they ignore it.
The Uros have the choice between several hide boxes attached to the tank via tubings of different length. Some of these hide boxes are filled with almost dry sand, one contains quite moist sand and one contains moist bark mulch. They make use of the different humidities for hydration and shedding and they use a moderately moist box for egg laying.
This is my feeding regime. Of course just one of many possibilities.
But thats what works very well for me.
Ci@o
Ingo
ingo
Jan 09, 2004 01:05 AM
Maybe I should mention that I tend to assume that this diet still is much richer than in their habitat and I am still playing with the relative amounts.
E.g, this year I will start giving mainly pre dried greens (more or less= hay) in Mai, since I have heard that in the habitat of my U. a. nigriventris fresh green is already very rare at this time of the year.
Also the term "ad libitum" may be understood wrong. I offer insects for a few hours and my Uros are not always very interested. The male is very kean on insects when he did not get any for a long time, but rapidly looses interest if they are offered regularily. The female loves them during gravidity and I guess, thats OK.
And I want to stress that the use of straw pellets and Plantago ovata seeds has significantly reduced food intake without reducing activity and strength of the animal. Hence I assume that both are a quite good source of dietary fibres.
Ci@o
Ingo
shelley7950
Jan 08, 2004 11:14 AM
np
tgreb
Jan 08, 2004 05:11 AM
heat is probably the number one thing that will make uros grow fast is diet is good.
