Reptile & Amphibian Forums

` Why are so many people voting against a venomoid forum? Do they think that because they're against it, it should be suppressed? It doesn't seem to me that it would compete with any other forums already running.
` I am not sure if I like the idea of surgically altered animals. On the other hand, my dogs and cats are surgically altered.
` I do know that I would like to learn more about it. A venomoid forum would be a good place to do that.
` What is it about some people that makes them want to eliminate anything that they don't agree with?
`
` There certainly are some towering egos, out there.
`
` If you think education is expensive, consider the cost of ignorance!
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Before you start making comments about "Towering egos" I suggest you reread the thread on Venomous. What the majority is upset about is the deliberate mutilation of a snake for the keeper's convenience. By voting NO on a forum we are indicating our lack of tollerance for what is basily animal abuse. If protesting this practice means we have "Towering egos" then gee I can live with it.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

` I've read the threads on the Venomous forum, thanks. As per usual for a virtual debate, they seem to be degenerating into inarticulate name calling. "Towering Egos" refers to a group mentality. I did not point out individuals therefore, it is not personal. I won't be responsible if you need to take it personally. Suit yourself.

` Sounds like you want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
` Of course, mutilation of animals by non-qualified people is wrong.
` Unqualified people who perform surgery on, or mutilate, helpless animals should have a little surgery on them, to prevent spawning more like them. I'd be happy to help hold them down, as anesthesia would be inappropriate.
` If, however, we go on banning all things that are abused, we're going to have to eliminate many necessary, and even good, things. Many people abuse automobiles, eliminate them. Many people can't handle recreational drugs, so let's ban them all. Oh, we already did that, but because it is morally wrong, of course. There are so many people out there abusing people sexually, let's ban sex.
` When you make everyone pay for the faults of a few, or even more than a few, you're getting away from the precepts that sparked these United States.
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From your response, I can see that you just don't get it, so I will try to explain. Driving a car is a voluntary and(sometimes) necessary thing. Abuse is wrong and abusive driver's should be taken off the road. Recreational drugs (in my personal opinion are wrong) but it is something that a person does VOLUNTARILY. Frankly, I don't get your additude on sex because as long as all parties are ok with it and not physically injuring themselves or others, I see no problem. It's when innocents get hurt or sick from their activities then something should be done.

Surgery on a snake to make it a venomoid is not necessary for the well being of the animal and is in fact, detrimental. Venom is not just used to kill prey, it is also a predigestant. in effect you are eliminating part of a snake's neccessary digestive equipment. It is INVOLUNTARY and is done only for the purpose of allowing it to be more safely handled. it is no different than cropping a dogs ears and tail. Venomoid surgery it'self is abuse, so there is no reason for your arguement about qualified vs unqualified. That is what we are saying. To have a VENOMOID forum is to sanction the practice. It is a part of this National heitige to voice our protest over what we know to be a wrong.

This has nothing to do with the "Good Old USA." I can see no precepts that justify mutilating an animal. Please don't give me the Body piercing or tattoo stuff either. Those again, are by choice: voluntary. Most of us who keep reptiles like healthy animals and care about providing the best we can for them. That is why we frown on this practice. Because what good does this surgery do for a snake? Answer me that, because cutting on it to make it more available to those who want to keep one is sure not a good reason in my book.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

` Is it the case then, that venomoid snakes currently existing, are not able to digest their food, and are suffering from dietary deficiencies?
` I am no expert on venomoid snakes, and want the opportunity to learn about them. I will not, however, accept other people's prejudices and dogma. Too many people have way too much love for their own opinion, and happily state it as fact. They will even go so far as to fight to defend their right enforce their misconceptions on others.
` I've seen many photos of large adult venomoid snakes, appearing to be well fed, healthy and active. What about that?
`
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A man with one leg can live a full life, but he is not complete, nor his life as full as it could be. So can a man with one lung, or one kidney. A venomoid can live a full life span minus the glands but it is not intact. Released it would die as it would be unable to feed it'self. So what you are creating is a cripple. Maybe a well fed cripple, but none the less a creation that is less than what it should be. I cannot see how anyone who truly loves these animals would want to create such a thing.

I am not a person who is impressed with anything other than the the truth. Prove me wrong and I am ready to accept that. One can argue for example that captivity is not the best fate for any animal, but there are rewards for the species kept, in that we make people aware that they exist and what we are familiar with we cherish. I keep snakes and also work on captive breeding...hopefully to one day help restablish some of these back into the wild.

So my point is....Show me how turning a snake into a venomoid improves it's health, or it's quality of life and I will accept that.

But don't give me the garbage that it makes a teaching tool... because it (by it's created nature) is a lie. All you do is encourage people to make more snakes like it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

` Wow. You're speaking from opposite sides of the metaphors you're creating. It's hard to figure an approach.
` I hope that if any venomous critter gets released, it was converted to a venomoid, before. As they would have a Hell of a time booking airline passage back to their natural habitat, it would be here that they got released. Damn those terrorists, anyway.
` We aren't keeping herps to enhance the quality of their lives. We're doing it to enhance the quality of ours. Hopefully, we're doing it in the most humane manner possible. These animals didn't evolve in nature to be our captives. The idea of captive husbandry is to be sensitive to the current needs of the captives. Boids, some of them anyway, are capable of adapting to captive behavior, and flourishing. My Anacondas have adapted, and hugely modified their behavior to suit their captivity. If they were released into their natural habitat, they would be meat.
` Being impressed only by the truth is a great ideal. The problem is that the truth often cuts a fine line between what is, and what should be. Isn't it better to keep an open mind and adapt to changing reality. Hell, even some of the snakes can do it.
` I don't think that the snake, or its species is rewarded by educating people and making them aware that they exist. The priorities of most people don't have much to do with the benefit of nature. So, I won't give you that garbage about them being a teaching tool. I don't know if I cherish my critters. I do like em a lot. I do also respect them and try hard to give them a comfortable, if not compromised, life.
`
` I don't care if captivity does not improve a critter's life, or its health. It would be Damn near impossible to do that. As long as it doesn't compromise it beyond that critter's ability to adapt. Whew.
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First of all thank you dfr for supplying that link. Very interesting. However certain statements you and Pulatus made are rather revealing (and disturbing).

You said in reference to keeping herps, you "...we're doing it to enhance the quality of ours".

That is the sad truth behind any kind of domestication. Naturaly they would be better off in a wild situation where people were not bulldozing habitats and killing them on sight. I do keep reptiles to enhance the quality of my life...correct. But I also actively work to save habitats and to breed in trouble species; in the hope that these can be returned to the wild. Hypocritical...Perhaps. But experience has taught me that people only care about what they are familiar with. I work with my herp society to educate people about what herps are and the value of protecting them. I think that balances the scale of my having some at home.

It is sad that so many people think of these and other animals as toys or fodder to do what they wish with them. I worked in the dog business and also for the pound. I have seen first hand the lowest part of animal keeping. So many of us treat our animals like trash. This gives fuel to groups like PETA.

I differ with your assesment of your Anaconda. Being from South Florida I am aware (by example) that release into a favorable habitat pretty well insures that animals survival. Your Anaconda would find all it needs to survive here.

Your statement dfr; "I don't care if captivity does not improve a critter's life, or it's health" is an example of an "Animal as trophy" kind of mindset. Some of us care more about the health of the animal kept.

"As long as it doesn't compromise it beyond that critter's ability to adapt".

Making an snake a venomoid is destroying it's capacity to adapt by making it totaly dependant on people.

Pulatus; "Obviously there is nothing at all wrong with Venomoid snakes"

Now there is example of a closed mind. If your snake was too big for it's cage would you lop off a couple of feet to make it fit? Why not? That would make it more conveniant. But no, that would reduce it's monetary value....People do some really rotten and unneccessary things to make their toys (oops... domesticated animals) convienient...or pretty?

I have to admit that the creation (breeding) of Freaks is an accepted (by society) practice. Personally I don't condone it, that is my choice. Cropping ears, bobbing tails and all the so called "cosmetic improvements" I am moraly opposed to. Guelding unfortunatly, I have to bend my additude on. Having worked for the pound and having seen the starving animals that people over breed and dump, as well the failures that result in horrible disfigurements when someone trys to create a fancier dog or cat (some so deformed that they cannot even eat)justifies the mercy of neutering.

Also the statement; that their genetics are ours to experiment on... Don't get me started (POMPOUS!!!!).

Niether one of you answered my question..."How does making a snake a venomoid improve it (other than making it more convieniant for people)? Guess there is no good answer to that.

That is why I continue to oppose this VENOMOID forum. If I am out voted then, at least I have stood for my beliefs. That too may not be fashionable but, so be it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

` When you break apart a thought by taking words out of context, and attempt to change the meaning of the original thought to create a point that you would like to speak to, you're wasting my time, and yours. Any persons taken in by this contrivance are not paying attention. It is a slick, crafty, and less than honest ploy. It is designed to catch the onlookers, who have not followed the entire debate, and bring them behind your point. At the same time it misrepresents what your opponent has said. It is an easy way to influence people so, who cares if it's ethical, right?
` Another point that you seem to have honestly misunderstood is this: My Anacondas, if released in the wild, surely could hunt and eat. What they might fail to do is to defend themselves against other predators. That is how they could become meat.
` I really don't think that captive snakes can appreciate us trying to make their lives better. They're pretty simple critters. I do believe that they can suffer when captivity is such that it decreases the quality of their lives. They can get sick, and be unhappy and aggressive as a result. I've rescued plenty of snakes, whose behavior improved dramatically with good husbandry.
` Working for the preservation of our natural resources is a noble thing to do. It sets a fine example and, hopefully influences people who don't normally think about it. But, you're doing it for yourself, and that's OK!! More people should. Just be honest with yourself about it. If you're doing your best, and succeeding, in their captive husbandry, you have nothing to make up for. It is not a bad thing. The snakes are not going to thank you. Just remember that when you get too rigid about each fine point, and make a stand there, you may be detracting from the overall good. Surely, many of the people who support venomoid snakes are also good people, and feel the same as you about conservation. Surely, many of them wouldn't be involved with a venomoid which was butchered by a non-professional. You might be able to work with them for the greater goal, instead of drawing a line at this point. If you must have each fine point strictly your way, you're going to lose momentum toward the greater goal.
` As far as the anger, outrage, and stubborn thing, I've been there, done that. It's a waste of life.
` What the Hell. That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
`

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What are you talking about????????? I answered your post in sections because it would help provide clarity....Not some Devious plot to muddle the minds of those who came late. I am getting tired of answering the same questions over and over as each new person enters this thread without reading what was said above. Your statements were not taken out of context because anybody with a little ambition could read your posts and get the full measure. I just spent three days out of state at a wedding and (excuse me) felt too tired to copy the whole thing.
That is the second time you have made suggestions that my charecter is questionable. What has that got to do with venomoids or the question which you still have not answered.
When you accuse someone of using slick devices and being unethical it usually means that you are unable or (unwilling to tackle the issue strictly on the basis of the arguement presented. You are right. You are wasting my time....
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

In reguards to your statement about Dogma. Prove what I am saying is wrong. Prove it is just my opinion. Study up on the function of those venom glands and of venom it'self. Then tell me where I am wrong. I am not an expert on venom. My wife however is a Toxinologist. So when I have a question I go to her. I also ask people on these forums like BGF. I check my info, or if I have an opinion, I state it as such. So please, Justify the practice of committing unneccessary (for the snake)organ removal. I will read and respond with fact or accept your point if you can prove it. I have seen live venomoids so your statement about their appearing healthy is accurate. But I will counter with the fact that a man can digest food enough to keep him appearing healthy after parts of hid digestive tract are removed....But would you recomend doing that to a healthy man? It is abuse. It's just that simple.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

` This was dug up by another snake fancier. It is food for thought.

FAQ: Venomoid snakes. Kingsnake.com FAQ

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Obviously, there is nothing at all wrong with vemonoid snakes. We alter many of our pets to make them more suitable to domisticity. I had a rex cat that sprayed, I nuetered it. I know people who keep skunks for pets sometimes remove their scent glands. We make gueldings out of horses for their owners sake.
People make the same purist arguements for hybrids - but when an animal becomes domestic, its genetics are ours to experiement with. Look at dwarf cats (munchkins), the many dog breeds, etc. There is no rational arguement against manipulating herps.

Joe