Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have read some of the post below regarding venomoids and opinions of the proceedure and those who keep them and have a few things to say. I think we as mature, intellegent adults have to learn to not be so judgmental.

I don't pretend as I set here in my little glass house to be "hollier than thou". Reason being is that every thing I really enjoy in this world if you looked at it from a certain point of view can be perceived as cruel. Fishing, and the keeping of reptiles.

I used to love to hunt as well, but lets face it the animals I have shot when my belly was full were definately not finding any sport in me blowing their brains out, and all hunters if they are honest will tell you at some point whether they were hunting deer, or quail there were animals they mortally wounded that fled for thier lives and were never found wasting the meat, dieing in vain, suffering a slow death, etc.

Fishing must be pretty tramatic on fish, not to mention what it must feel like to have a gaff slammed into you.

Reptiles, I don't think if they had the opertunity to be free they would opt to spend the rest of their lives stuck in a 2x2, 2x4, or worse a sweater box on a rack with no light to bask in, nothing to see, or ever have happen. Just so some bozo like us can gaze at them throw a rat, or what ever in there once a week and enjoy keeping them like a child with a trapped toad in a shoe box.

I am selfish and I will not deny myself the pleasure I get of fighting a big fish in the open ocean, keeping repiles and being able to play god breeding them. The hunting scene I left long ago, but I do not condem others who still enjoy it.

I keep crotalis from time to time. I find other hots very interesting. Gaboon vipers in particular. I would not keep anything like that personally because they are a little too hot for me, but I would not condem others who own them if they have a proper reptile room, and not just a bunch of enclosers in the spare room of their houses.

It does make a lot of scense to own a venomoid if that animal is to be held captive and to never be released out into the wild. I don't have a problem if the procedure is done properly with anistedic etc, same as I don't have a problem with people docking mans best friends ears, and tails. Is it necesary? No, but neither is any of our hobbies neccesary? Who are we as reptile people to judge people who keep venomoids as cruel? Is it not cruel to rip an animal out of the wild so you can be entertained by him being your captive in a box for the rest of his life? We all have bought animals like this.

Venomoid people are no different than the rest of us. They are facinated with the same specie as you. Don't assume they have not done their home work in proper husbandry, etc. There is no benifit to isolated people. There can be many things learned in the journey of life and most come from the least place you'd expect. It is a funny thing when people always want to point out how cruel this activity, and that activity is to some how make them feel a step above their fellow man.

If I wanted to be sensitive to all cruelties I would stop eating animals, stop fishing, and arrange for all my animals to some how be quarenteened and returned to where thier specie is native whether they are captive born or not (impossible I know). If I am honest I guess I am not that sensitive. Period!

I guess I'll stop ranting and just say bottom line Venomoid people have just as much right to keep venomoids as we do keeping venomous. None.

Excuse my spelling, and grammor. I majored in fun in school! LOL

ZACK!

You know Zack, you make some very good points. As much as I dislike the idea of venomoids, I cannot blame people for wanting to keep them. Of those of us who keep dangerous snakes, how many of you have dreamed of being able to handle the snakes whenever necessary without risk to your life or the life of your loved ones? It's a dream I'm sure many, if not all, of us have had. I wish there was a better way to make venomous reptiles safe in captivity, but then again, what is the point of having a safe hot snake? Almost all hot snakes have a nonvenomous counterpart that acts very similar to them. Mambas : racers, gaboons : bloods, cobras : ratsnakes, etc etc etc. Why do I keep venomous snakes? That's a very hard question to answer when anyone really thinks about it. I guess I keep them because the species I maintain (boomslangs and taipans) have either fascinated me for a long time (taipans) or caught my attention to the fact that they are one of the most unique, if not just plain weird, snakes on the planet (boomslang). I would never have the venom glands of any of my hot snakes removed for my own comfort, for I feel that because I have chosen to keep them in captivity, I take the risk to keep them. If I am bitten and die, it's a risk I am willing to take. I just have a deep love for these animals that can't exactly be met by looking at pictures of them or reading about them. Maybe if the venomoid process was supported by more vets willing to do the procedure under sterile, safe conditions, using an implant to not only keep the snake looking natural but probably making it feel a little more natural as well, then I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. And maybe if the venomoid price tag was the same as, or even less than, the intact snake's price tag, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. But the reality is that almost all venomoids on the market today were cut up by someone's kitchen knife in their garage with hardly any or no anesthetic or in sterile conditions. These snakes undergo a literal nightmare during this procedure that I cannot fathom what it must be like to them. However, all that being said, just like you said in your post, humans have always taken nature and changed it to fit our wants. From the tons of domestic dogs and cats, to ear clipping, tail docking, and declawing. As much as I hate to admit it, I am the owner of a declawed bobcat, and the surgery to have this done was solely for our (mine and my family's) benefit. Although the surgery probably wasn't comfortable for her initially, she quickly got over it, and I'm convinced that despite her incredibly docile, well-socialized nature, I've saved myself countless thousands of dollars in emergency room bills or even funeral costs if I had not done it. Oh, and not to mention the furniture is still intact. Anyway, as jumbled as this is it really does have a point. I can't stand home-based venomoiders. I think what they do is cruel and horrible for the animals. However, the only way to stop them is not to sit here and fight with each other. Just simply don't buy the animals from them. Maybe then they'll stop what they're doing, or at least find qualified individuals to do it for them. But alas, the venomoid debate will never be finished...at least not until venomous snakes or venomoids are completely outlawed. Which at the current rate, could be sooner than anticipated.
-Chance

I have about forty HOT snakes but enjoy the eight Venomoids the most. Why?? Not because they make me feel macho but because I don't have to spend over thirty thousand freakin' dollars if one of them bites me!! I def. feel it is worth the extra $300 to enjoy the interaction with the animals. I recently receieved an unsolicited letter (as I'm sure some of you also received the same chain letter) from an "old-time" herper who is always ranting and raving about Venomoids. "We need seperation from the people who keep Venomoids", "Hitler" this, and curse, curse, curse. Like I give a crap what he thinks. Sounds like the freakin' grand-dragon for the KKK if you ask me. If he doesn't want to buy my animals that is fine with me. He only buys (or catches) animals that come from the wild for cheap anyways!! Try doing something positive like a breeding program to eliminate the need for raping the wild of our natural treasures. I understand that alot of the people doing the surgery are not qualified to do so. But that does not mean the whole concept is bad. You simply do a little research, ask the right questions, and don't buy from the people who simply tie the ducts, etc. Someone who does the surgery with the proper anesthetics, sutures, nerve blocks, pain medication, etc. is potentially saving a human life or limb. There are not many Venomous Keeper who can say they have never bee bitten by a hottie. That's one less person adding ammunition to the legal problems people face from government branches who tell us what is best for us. This guy is talkin' like the Venomoids are goin' to get us in more trouble w/ our neighbors than a HOT animal would - what kind of nonsense is that??!! I'd rather live next to some kracker with a Venomoid than a Venomous animal any day. Especially if he isn't the brightest guy on the block. It is bad news if it escapes either way but which would be safer to the community?? The bottom line is this is America- year 2004 - not the era of the civil war when people try to bully you into thinking the way they believe - go watch Mississippi Burning if you want to relive the old days. Is it really that different than neutering a dog or cat?? It is a personnal choice - mind your own business. I keep Venomous & Venomoids - who are you to tell me what to do??

Glad to hear that you can understand & respect someone else's opinion Chance. I hate to hear of anyone losing life or limb for the love of keeping HOTS. Take care & respect all life....

Zack does make some good points which is why this issue is being so hotly debated. However, he has said nothing that changes my mind on the issue. One form of abuse does not justify another.

But to clarify one point (I am not the old herper who sent an unsolicited letter). It is not my contention to tell people what to do. However, It is my right (and yours) to stand and debate on any issue that I (or you) have an opinion on. It is also my right to oppose something I feel is wrong. It does bother me that so many people in these forums when faced with facts or opinions they disagree with...lower the standard of debate by getting personal. I don't mean someone saying someone has a closed mind or such, as that may well be that persons opinion. I refer to the below the belt attacks.

That being said I will comment that the same debate is going on in the OPEN DISCUSSION FORUM. dfr posted a link (I think someone else did to) about venomoids. Interesting reading. If anything this debate is creating a familiarity/edudational experience, with the information about this subject, so some good is coming from it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

While Frank is at it, I'd like to also make it clear that I have not sent out any unsolicited letters either.

Signed,
Oldherper

Jolliff, I seem to detect a double standard there. You complain about one person being a bully for trying to "force" his opinion, then you say below that "it is a personal choice-mind your own business."

Venomoid creation is no way like neutering. Neutering has become a nesccessity because of a situation we people created. I have found kittens dumped in garbage bags and left in the woods by people who produced "unwanted" litters. I have seen dogs come into the pound that could not walk because of birth defects or starvation. I have seen others that our so called right to do what we want with them, has resulted in producing pups with deformities to the mouth that made it impossible for these animals to eat. Pet overpopulation is a serious issue. Venomoiding is a proceedure intended only to render snakes safer for handling. A very big difference between that and neutering.

I keep Venomous and I have been bitten. But my personal opinion is that when I take in one of these animals, it is up to me to get the proper training to safely work with them. If I get bit, then that is my fault. I do not keep cobras or Mambas for that reason. That is my personal choice.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I seem to detect a double standard there. You complain about one person being a bully for trying to "force" his opinion, then you say below that "it is a personal choice-mind your own business."

I don't quite see the dbl. standard. If my opinion was YOU should get YOUR Venomous animals operated on so that you don't kill yourself or give the goverment a reason to not allow us to keep Venomous species then that would be a dbl. standard. I'm simply saying I don't appreciate receiving emails from a certain someone ranting & raving about how people who keep Venomoids need to be segragated from the rest of the Herp community. This is (somewhat) of a free country & if I want to keep Venomoids I don't think it is anyone else's business. If I am inhumanely doing the procedure myself, it might be a different story. I do not verbally attack people who clip a dogs tail or declaw there cats because it is none of my business.

None of our business. In that you are wrong. Like it or not you are part of a community (reptile enthusiasts) that is under fire from groups looking to take away our rights. They only care about what fuel they can use to make us all look bad. Surgery on a snake to alter it for our convieniance is just the kind of thing these people look for to show we are just heartless abusers. Advocating the practice backs up their arguement. The creation of a forum for it, gives it credability. Like it or not...You are living in a glass house, which unfortunatly, when you advertise what you do makes it everybody's business.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,
America = choice. It is my choice to advertise & promote Venomoids with a persons safety in mind & it your choice to not buy one. I'm not here to make you buy one or tell you to only keep Venomoids because it is bad for all "herp enthusiasts" if you get bit. And people do get bit AND people lose their lives. No matter how careful one is, accidents do happen. I'm here to say it is an option that anyone is entitled to. Staying alive (or keeping your digits & limbs) is a necessity, neutering a dog or cat is not.

I am afraid you have your patriotism so far up your arguement, that you forget that having the right to disagee is a part of our freedom.

As to your statement that neutering dogs and cats is not necessary...If you cannot make the decision that neutering animals to prevent what I described above is necessary, please walk into your local pound (if you can)and shovel the dead carcasses of the poor creatures into the furnace that died because of people who exercised their rights to keep, breed and abuse them. I have been there and done that. Some of the dogs I burned were dogs I sold months earlier to people who wanted them and then disposed of them for their own conveniance. Other's were puppies that were real cute, till their owners found out that they wouldn't sell. Sometimes those rights you broadcast get exersized in the most cruel and brutal ways. Neutering is the only thing that stops (some) of this abuse.

Saving limbs and lives are important. I repeat important! But it is easily prevented by not keeping venomous reptiles. Keeping them (and the risk involved) is our choice and our responsibility. Those consequences are a part of our choice.I do not see where keeping any venomous is a necessity so your arguement is not valid. It is about personal responsibility.

I wish more people would look at the consequences of their actions (rights) before taking on an animal that is totaly dependant on their owner's whims.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

The reason for your arguement makes sense now that you reveal you are in the business of selling Venomoids. You need to protect your business.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank, how many times are you going to voice the same opinion. You have not said anything new in at least 25 different posts. You need to learn that not everyone agrees with you and that is O.K. you also need to learn that some people (obviously not you) are motivated by other things than the all mighty dollar.
If everyone learned how to care for venomous snakes by the same person, than we would not have to worry about snake bites near as much, some people didn't have the luxury of learning from someone qualified to teach. therefor they may or may not be comfortable doing it, does that diminish their desire or right to keep venomous?
I say right, because it is not illegal if done by a veterinarian as it stands now. So until it is illegal. which it should be, mind you, much like de-clawing a cat should be. Don't continue on trying to save the world, Every hobby has it's flaws, this is one that will eventually fade away. Instead of fighting with people to change their minds, ( which they will not do) Try something positive, like not buying and not encouraging others to buy from someone who sells non-hot hots? It will take time, but hey what doesn't?

It is not my intent to save the world. I am not the sheppard that you think I try to be. It is my belief that when you see something you beleave to be wrong, then you stand up for that belief. Silence is acceptance. I allways stand for the right of an individual to choose...But I think that process is helped by hearing both sides of an issue and that is what I am offering by presenting one view. If an idea is right it should stand the test of critisism. I poised a question and none of the advocates of venomoids or of a forum have answered it. I agree, my fingers are sore (arthritis) from answering the same questions over and over each time someone new shows up here.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,
You have more stamina than I. And I don't even have arthritis yet. I'm with you on this one. Just out of curiosity, what question have they not answered? I ask just so that I don't have to go over all the previous posts.
Keep this in mind. Education is the key, some you just have to bonk on the head a little harder to pay attention

Simply put, the question I asked is What benifit does the Snake get from having it's glands removed? I don't know about stamina. Caught a H--- of a bug on that trip to Memphis (nice Zoo though, had a King Cobra that was on rats!).

Dunno-Idealy there is definitly an arguement against keeping snakes in cages. And the day the human race grows up and leaves these animals in peace on huge tracts of land where they can grow and prosper, then maybe we will have grown enough not to have to. The biggest reason for is that the last thing I wrote was a fantasy....Aint gonna happen. For many species, captivity is a sad alternative to extinction. That's just how it is. PETA would use the torture aspect on mice and rats...Gee call me a hypocrite but in nature snakes eat them and as food they are necessary. Uncontrolled they are a danger to even themselves as they over eat...That is nature....No comparrison.

I have read and answered your posts Dunno- so I don't get where I am not allowing you a voice. But when you create a forum on a topic, you are legitatmatising it. And For a forum as prestigeous as KINGSNAKE to back it would send the message that the herp community is for it. I'm not, so I oppose this, as is my right. You as I see it, are expressing yours. Freedom of speech is being satisfied.

Why don't you do what some of your fellows here have done and create your own talk website? Seems to me to be the logical answer.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

what good does surgery do for the snake? It always more people who love them and will take care of them to do so and and less chance of them dying than out in the wild. yes some will handle and love them hot. I cannot risk this does that mean I love them anyless NO! Now awnser this what good to the snake does it do to keep it in a cage? Why not let them live wild wich to you is the best method you preach what is good for the snake then I say send all yours back to the wild and work on getting people to free theirs you say no unnessery traume what do you think captivity is? You will justify your position to the death and I will defend your right to do it. It is just sad that you feel I do not deserve the same right. I don't ask you to support a forum for us but to block it like you are doing is somthing diffrent. If there is no forum for us we will keep invading yours. You leave us no choice!

This guy makes the point of all points. According to rearfang guy, it's ok to keep them cooped up in a cage, but not devenomize them. That's ridiculous! Plus the fact, it's all about a forum, somewhere for these people to talk. Remember the first amendment?????? If you don't believe it should be there, don't go there. Otherwise keep your mouth shut. It's that simple!

You know.....In one breath you say OH! The First Ammendment! The next Breath you are telling those who disagree with your stand to shut up! I love your take on Freedom (lol). Why is it when there is no arguement to support an issue, the proponents hide behind Flag waiving and/or name calling?

If you cannot make the difference between captive husbantry of reptiles and the unnecessary mutilation of those animals, I suggest you kindly get off your soap box and read all the posts on this issue. It has been well covered. I am really tired of having to repeat myself because you don't want to take the time to read.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hey Frank,

Your statement of:

"If you cannot make the difference between captive husbantry of reptiles and the unnecessary
mutilation of those animals, I suggest you kindly get off your soap box and read all the posts on this
issue".

I think is a little off in my humble opinion. I think as an individual who has had to spend a few years of my life being a "captive" of the state, and having my "husbandry" left up to the department of corrections I would have to say in my experienced opionion I would rather have had my tonsills, and my appendix taken out anyday. LOL

I hear people mention "choice". Well, I realize a snake is not as smart as a human but why dont you leave the individual "choice" up to your reptile. Just leave his cage open and see what "choice" he makes on the matter. LOL
Will he elect to stay with you and appreciate you "saving" him from his old home that you like to think was a place that was desimated by bull dozzers, and hang in the little cage you provided that only has the bare neccesities to keep him alive fat and healthy or will his better judgement tell him that anything must be better than this boring a$$ excuse for a life and that you really can't call it a life at all. It's more of an exzistance and bail out and hit the road? LOL

Be honest with yourself. We aren't keeping these animals because it's better for them. we are keeping them because we are entertained by being able to observe them and are facinated with them to no end. It is selfish. I can admit that to myself. If you can't and have to create a whole bunch of other scenarios in your head to make yourself belive that you are somehow noble for keeping herps you are the one in my "opinion" who has a problem not a herper who likes the exta safety that owning a venomoid provides.

If you have a problem with the procedure being done by unlicenced people I can understand that.

I agree venomoid surgery is un-neccesary, but so is a lot of other crap we entertain ourselves with. You could go on, and on.Don't take me to seriously, but unless you practice what you preach you may be intitled to you opinions, but you really aren't in a possition to condem what you see as not being "what's best for the animals".

ZACK!

First of all Zack I find your humour quite amusing but your moral aim a bit off. Again, there is no comparison between captive husbantry and venomoiding. As stated endless times.....Do I really have to say it again? Guys you are clutching at straws!

Now to the real issue..... There is no constitutional right to have a Venomoid (or for that matter any) column on KINGSNAKE. Kingsnake is a COMMERCIAL not a PUBLIC website. That the owner(s) chose to allow talk forums is their perogative. As such the First Amendment or any of that does not have juristiction any more than if you were to try to tell FORD what truck to build. By their curtesy, they have proposed the possibility of a Venomoid site and have opened this forum and an opinion vote to the general public. Your (and my) right to Freedom of Speech is limited to expressing our views (pro and con) here. It by no means implies that you have a Right to this or any other forum.

(This is for all you people who are claiming their first Ammendment rights are being taken....)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Zack, you might want to consider that Every snake keeper and (for that matter)Every pet owner including you, falls under your moral dilemma. I really wish you would get off this issue and deal with the one we are debating. Thankyou.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

:Zack, you might want to consider that Every snake keeper and (for that matter)Every pet owner including you, falls under your moral dilemma. I really wish you would get off this issue and deal with the one we are debating. Thankyou.

Frank

Hey Frank,
The thread I originally started has nothing to do with the right to have a Venomoid Forum on Kingsnake. That thread ran out of steam a little further down the forum. My original thought was that people who own venomoids should be able to do so without recieving a bunch of crap about "what is best for the animals" from people like you, and myself who are not in a position to judge them .

I don't have any anxiety over this. Same as I don't care that people are killing captive born snakes every day to feed their wild caught King Cobra's. You brother are hell bent on saving venom glands, and I say who gives a care. You aren't speaking out for all the baby balls being killed to feed Wild Caught Cobra's.

I don't care about any of this. It's all misdemeaner. Then again I am not that sensitive, or that judgemental. Your skin is WAY too thin Frank. You need to learn to be a little more tolerent of people who have different views than you. I would have to say I agree with you, but I can also see the side of the person who wants to be 110% sure that niether he, or anyone else in the general vicenity ever gets bit. It doesn't take a lot to get bit either you know. Far more experienced herpers than you or I have had the misforturn of finding out what hell these little beauties can inflict.

I guess that is all I have to say on the matter. I am sure you will have to comment on this post as well not because you have anything new to bring to the table, but more important to "you" It makes you feel better to have the last word.

Be my guest grass hopper. ZACK!

Hey just got in and thought I'd look to see what kind of thoughts (if any) I got from my original post.

Aparently some understood the points I was trying to make while an apparent "Mad Poster" missed it completely.

I was just trying to point out that cruelty is in the eye of the beholder if you will, and I am not afraid to say I dont always "do the right thing"

Some of the activities I engage in can and are cruel on certain levels. Fishing, using live animals for bait. Killing large game fish by slitting their gills bleeding them out is diffinatel in humane, ant the keeping of reptiles and denying them the chance to enjoy freedom and the chance for a fullfilling life.

Lets also begin our new quest for purity by spending tonight cracking open our bags of frozen rodents and studying them to make sure they were Murdered", sorry to strong a word how about "killed", don't like that one either well whatever word one likes to use that has a better sound to it and means the taking of another animals life. Oh ya, killed in a "humane" manner. what ever that means.

Better yet why don't we all loose a few nights of sleep for all the baby ball pyhons who are no longer being bred for pets because the reptile community deems them expandible because they no longer command enough dollars to be what we consider "special" snakes and are now raised to be "humanely" killed and end up as Cobra Crap! Please, give me a break.

If you arent saint like and pay very close attention to every step you take while traveling through this world for fear you may kill a small family of life loving ants, and always practice "catch and release" of all un-invited flys, spiders, and moths you find in your home you really aren't in a position to be self rightches.

I am not afraid to admit that I can inflict a little cruelty when it suits my cawse. Like i said I dont always do the right thing, but one thing I do try is to not be a hypocrit, and a BULL SH%TTER.

I don't have a problem with someone who wants to own Venomous If they have taken the right precations and have invested in a rock solid reptile room that Whodini himself could not escape from. A hot herper who has taken the time and money to insure that myself or my family will not be sitting in our living room in Virginia and come face with a Cobra from Eygipt.

I have a problem with that. I have a problem with people who sell venomous and don't give a care to look into this perspective buyer to make sure they have the knowlege, and set up to handle a liabillity like this. I have a problem with how many animals that are being snatched out of the wild. You can buy a truck load of many venomous specie for under $100 a piece. That is a shame. Unfortunety people usually treat their possesions well only if they have a lot invested. Just ask your old childhood buddy the Ball Python.

To me a properly done Venomoid surgery done by a vet is nothing compared to a lot that we engage in.

In the words or our father " Let he who is without sin cast the 1st stone" Otherwise, sit back, take a nap, and don't say Jack! LOL ZACK!

Phillip,
While I agree with both you and Frank on many points (I think you two are actually pretty much on the same page with respect to venomoids), there is one that I have to disagree with you on.

This is not simply a "trend" that will go away. The first reference to "venomoids" that I saw was back in the late 1970's and early 1980's. People were "experimenting" with making a small incision between the scales just in front of the venom gland, locating the venom duct, bisecting it and making ligations on both ends (sort of like performing a vasectomy). People were doing this in their homes with their own animals in a non-sterile environment. This idea (of creating venomoid snakes) has definitely gained momentum since then and apparently folks have found a more dependable method in the complete removal of the venom gland. I have seen horrible mutilations resultant from both methods, but I don't think that will deter people who are determined to keep "venomous" animals but are afraid of them. As long as venomous snakes are available to private collectors this idea will be around in one form or another. Even making the practice illegal will not stop it. You cannot legislate morality. People keep venomous snakes illegally, they will also try to make them venomless illegally. The only good thing about making the practice illegal would be that it would give legitimate venomous herpers an avenue to distance themselve from the practice.

I'll try to be brief... that'll be an accomplishment for me

I have no real issue with this procedure, if it's done in a humane way...

What I have a problem with is people who perform this procedure under the premise that they're out to do a public service, when all they're doing is providing a market for importers to sell animals that would never have been sold, enabling them to import more, etc..... when the REAL reason this is done to the snakes is to enable the venomoiders (my term for the folks doing this at home) to turn huge profits on wild caught snakes.

Take a look at the greater majority of the animals that are operated on, and you'll see that they're wild caught. If these people would BREED prospective venomoids solely for the purpose of slicing and dicing their venom glands out for profit, then I'd certainly have a lot less to get all riled up about. If the sale were a humanitarian effort on their part to make educational presentations "safer" for the presenter and audience, as most of these folks CLAIM it is.... then why are they selling AFRICAN and SOUTHEAST ASIAN species for "educational presentations" to be conducted here in the United States? Last time I went snake hunting, I didn't target Mambas and Cobras out here in Virginia.... and I certainly don't see any reason to want to "educate" ant of the locals about venomous snakes from other parts of the world....

So, the only reason I can see to buy cheap imports for "modification" purposes is to make MONEY... which you'll never get one of these folks to admit....

Making money isn't terrible, but mutilating animals so you can make higher profit margins from them is.....

Apparently, and I didn't know this prior to a few days ago, there seems to be a high mortality rate in animals that are sliced and diced at home. I guess infections run high when you don't have access to the correct medications to treat the secondary infections that must be fairly common in these "at home" "medical" procedures. At least that's what I've been told in the past few weeks... Yeah, the people that cut up the snakes have as much right to what they do as I have in keeping animals in cages (my arse they do).... but they certainly have no right to kill them in the process of trying to exploit them.

Lastly, purchasers of these animals just provide the demand for more and more imports.... Breed them and then do whatever you want to with them.... the only reason I'll take in a wild caught animal is to keep it for breeding purposes... not so I can wear it around my neck (after the glands have been cut out of course) to impress my friends......
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"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"

Here is a group of great people, where one can discuss venomoids in peace.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/venomoid?yguid=63701910