Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
https://www.crepnw.com/
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Moisture in dirt and a rant(long).

tgreb Jan 06, 2004 09:27 AM

Moisture in dirt is very important for uromastyx especially young. Usually in captivity you do not have to worry about moisture because the captive diet is very high, even too high in moisture for uros. Young without moisture will dehydrate very quickly. Most uromastyx in the wild burrow under rocks or in very rocky soil which holds the moisture in the the ground. The rock kind of creates a barrier not allowing the moisture to evaporate too quickly. Uromastyx burrows in the wild are usually high in humidity compared the the ambient humidity level. It is kind of like the old trick to get water if you are stuck in the desert. Dig a hole, put a container to catch the water in the bottom of the hole, cover the hole with plastic sheeting. The moisture in the ground will condense on the bottom of the plastic and drip into the container and you have drinking water. It is the same in the uros burrows but not quite as efficient. This will also eleviate shedding problems. A trick is you can sink a perforated pvc tub into the dirt with a spout sticking up out of the dirt and add water to it occasionally. This will keep the dirt under the surface moist and will allow the surface to dry out so just the burrow is humid. This would take a lot of experimentation because you do not want the burrow wet as this will cause all kinds of problems.
Hell this all way too complicated! Just use play sand. There has been very successful, on going, long term breeding of most of the uro species available in the US using play sand and plastic hides. Matthew Moyle from Saurus used to breed probably 200-400 uros(acanthinura, ornata and dipar maliensis) a year using small generic cages. It just depends on how complicated you want to get.
Now here I will go off on a tangent and rant. Here is the catch! All you people need to support these guys that are breeding such as: Lindsay Pike, Audrey Vanderlinden, Doug Dix, Bert Langerwerf and I am sure there are plenty others. Other wise they will go the way of Matt Moyle and give it up. Then when these animals are no longer exported from their countries of origin(which most of them are not anymore) they will not be available to us. Sure they are more expensive but well worth it. Do any of you know how much work is involved in properly taking care of a 50-100 lizards? People that go to these guys with problems with their wild caught lizard wonder why they get blown off. Not only did you not support their efforts but these guys simply do not have time to deal with other peoples problems. You would not have a lot of the problems you guys are having if you purchased from these people. Plus you would get support if something did go wrong. I constantly hear of people on this forum and on the Uromastyx list server having problems with wild caught animals purchased in pet stores and on-line then getting no support from where they bought it. I think Robyn from PE just touched on this in a previous post. People especially novices should purchase from these poeple. All of us should support them.
Sorry just my 2 cents. You will probably think to yourself, "Who the hell does this guy think he is? God?". No I don't! I have been guilty of this myself and have learned from experience. I hope we all can learn. That is what this forum is here for right?

Thanks for your time!
Tom Greb

Replies (13)

JDBLACKDOG Jan 06, 2004 10:11 AM

TOM-
I wish the "Pet stores" would see something other than profits from low quality W/C speceims, but they won't! Fortunetly, (HOPEFULLY) anyone willing to participate in these forums are here to learn from others mistakes as well as push some boundries. I know I have learned alot. And will continue to do so. Sorry to say, but these mistakes ie. "JUST GOT ONE--HOW DO I TAKE CARE OF IT?" are doomed to repeat themselves. All I can hope for, is we (YOU & Hugh,Rik,Robyn,ect..) continue to share. Smile, you've helped teached.
-----
JDBlackdog
2.1 MALI
1.1 YELLOW GEYRI
1.2 SOMOLIAN
1.1 ORNATE
0.1 ROTTWEILER

Sunfox Jan 06, 2004 11:37 AM

and that problem is: where I live (Canada), there are little to no uromastyx breeders and big-time breeders in the U.S., like Lindsey Pike and Doug Dix, do not ship any of their animals here. I'm all for captive bred lizards (Ra being one of them) but the problem lies in places where captive breeding is almost non-existant. I ask all of the great breeders of captive bred uromastyx to consider giving their neighbours north of the border a chance at owning and breeding these fantastic animals.

Thanks for listening

btw, I bought Ra from a breeder that kept uros for a few years. Unfortunately, she had to give them up because they cost too much to maintain (she has leopard and crested geckos, and veiled chameleons). I'm hoping to pick up where she left off
-----
1 Mali Uromastyx named Ra

tgreb Jan 06, 2004 12:08 PM

there are always exceptions. If they are not available to you there is not a whole lot you can do and that is understood. I am talking in general. Also I am not saying all pet stores and on-line resources are insufficient but a lot are. Also if people researched these animals before they bought them they would know that there are breeders out there. Like you said there were no breeders available in Canada but you probably found this our by researching the animal before you purchased it. A good example of what I am talking about concerns all the ornate uros that have just recently been brought into the US. These are notoriously hard to acclimate. Lindsay was telling me he got a bunch of e-mails and phone calls asking how to take care of this sickly ornate when he had plenty cb ones he was not able to sell. Let me rephrase myself. "We have to support these breeders when ever possible."

Jaffar311 Jan 06, 2004 12:45 PM

I purchased 2 Ornates from Lindsay last summer and they are amazing. It was actually right before the rush of imported juvies. When I decided to make the jump from Mali's and Geyri's(saharans) to Ornates I had no intention of spending that kind of money on wild caught junk. The male I got from him was a "imported" CBB about 6 inches long but he had had it in his captivity for over 6 months and had treated it himself and then I purchased a CBB female subadult from him a few months later and I could not be happier with the quality of animal I got. The 2 of them are my babies and get all of my attention. I really should get a pic for here.

Spankenstyne Jan 07, 2004 03:03 AM

Sunfox, i hear ya.I live in Western Canada and i plan on breeding my uro(s).There just desn;t seem to be anybody out here doing it..I can't see myself becoming anything bigtime like the big breeders but several smaller operations should fill the niche here i feel.
I'm still a ways off, i only have one "Uro" at the moment, a male Mali but i plan on getting him a woman or two in tne next year or so to start breeding.Gotta start somewhere, and i want to do it right.

Spanky

Sunfox Jan 07, 2004 10:57 AM

I'm also looking for a female mali for Ra (I'm pretty sure he's male) so let me know if you find a good breeder. If I'm wrong and Ra turns out to be a girl, maybe we should breed ours together


-----
1 Mali Uromastyx named Ra

Spankenstyne Jan 11, 2004 05:13 AM

Will do, and sounds good!

el_toro Jan 06, 2004 12:25 PM

Don't forget that the inexpensive WC animal will likely be far more expensive in the long run after all the vet bills, parasite treatments, feeding needles, etc. Learned that one the hard way.
-----
Torey
1.1 Uromastyx Geyri (Joe and Arthur)
1.1 Anolis Carolinensis (Bowser and Leeloo)
1.0 Betta Splendens (Mr. Miagi)
1.1 Felis Domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

robyn@ProExotics Jan 06, 2004 03:38 PM

a good soil/dirt substrate that allows for all the essentials (safety, security, moisture, burrowing, egg laying, etc) is not a paint by the numbers thing. you have to LEARN about it to make it work well, but the rewards are definitely worth it.

certainly breeders have had success without a good soil. but can you imagine what they might do with an even better setup?

as for the point about supporting breeders, of course it is dead on. the problem is...

it seems to be one of those mistakes that EVERYONE seems to make at first. in retrospect, it seems so obvious to say "avoid all the hassles, headaches, and death, and buy captive bred from a breeder" but for folks that really are newbies, and can't tell the different between what you and i suggest, and what Melissa Kaplan suggests, or what their local pet store suggests, that WC ("oh yeah, it's captive bred" "live" Uro in the cage available RIGHT NOW makes as much sense as any.

goodness knows i have made plenty of ill informed boneheaded choices in the past, and i have learned from my mistakes, but it seems that folks need to live it to learn it, so we see the same cycle again and again.

the delbaso poster here on the forum is dealing with it right now...

there has been good info posted to this person, and some bad info as well, and they are now buying two WC Uros in a row, so apparently nothing has sunk in, or more likely, they lack the context to make use of what we are saying.

telling someone to buy captive bred from a breeder doesn't help when their local pet store tells them that the WC Uro they just got from "Crap Is Us Importers" is a fine captive specimen...

it is so easy to fall for the okey doke, there is a lot less work and effort in that than to truly do your homework, be patient, and perhaps wait 3 extra months for true captive bred availability...
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Sunfox Jan 06, 2004 03:50 PM

When your uro business starts going really well and you are able to sell them, please consider making some of your animals available to Canadians as well. I would love to be able to buy CB uros from a reputable breeder who doesn't have the budget problems that small-time uro breeders do.

Good luck with your projects
-----
1 Mali Uromastyx named Ra

robyn@ProExotics Jan 06, 2004 04:33 PM

the problem of getting animals to Canada isn't lack of effort from breeders (or even dealers) it is the paperwork and expense involved.

exporting to Canada is pretty much the same as exporting to, say, Yugoslavia, even though you are "right there". there is a LOT of paperwork involved, all kinds of fees, duties, health reports, and more, as well as a 3 month (or more) wait from filing the paperwork to get approval.

for an order of a thousand dollars or more, it may be worth it for both parties, but for a single animal that may cost less than the paperwork, as well as the multi-month wait, it is simply not worth it, to either party.

the best thing to do is to arrange all the paperwork from your side, and have the animal shipped to a broker house or friend's house on the border, and then take the animal across yourself. in more than 10 years of breeding and selling reptiles, i have had ONE customer go through the trouble to do this for an animal (a single monitor). no one else feels it is worth their time.

there is a real lack of reptiles available in Canada, and a great market there just waiting to be filled. it is not for lack of interest that we can't fill it, but rather cost, time, and expense...

bummer.
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Sunfox Jan 06, 2004 05:42 PM

Maybe Proexotics will become big enough to have a store in Canada as well. You would be well received, I guarantee you that

Thanks for the info

-----
1 Mali Uromastyx named Ra

RaderRVT Jan 07, 2004 12:37 AM


-----
Stacey

Site Tools