Reptile & Amphibian Forums

dosage per day??? Regular vitamin D3 pills contain 1000 IU and most reptile dust contains 20,000-400,000 IU/kg

How do I know how much to supplement???
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

Don't be cheap, buy a 5.0 bulb and quit worrying about how much to dust without using any UVB. It's not worth the risks of not using one, you'll end up paying more in vet visits.
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

14.99 each at LLLREPTILE until Friday there's your chance have at it.
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

Personally I (as well as many others) find those bulbs to be nothing more but expensive and useless...they only work when used a foot away from your chameleon...powersun bulbs contain mercury and will KILL your animals if they ever shattered. UV rays are cut by more than half if filtered through a screen...which means a 5.0 bulb if placed on top of an enclosure is only going to work at a maximum of 2.5...and once it starts deteriorating it will be even less. And Remember...that's only if it's within 12" of the animal.
If you put the fixture in the enclosure you animal may risk climbing on it and becoming injured.

If you have money to throw away...go out and buy the bulbs...but in my opinion they are totally useless. We have stopped using those things for over a year now and have had absolutely no problems...no changes in temperment or health.

No changes in colour either...as we use the much cheaper plant bulbs to create sufficient light for the chameleons in addition to a heat bulb.

All I'm trying to do is learn more about supplementation than we already know and so we can keep them successfully and healthy.

I like to hear others suggestions on such things so I can converse with them and hopefully learn more to benefit my animals.

Since we live in Canada...outdoor sunlight is not an option for 7 months of the year. I'm not cheap...I can afford the bulbs...I just don't want to pay for something that will not do what it claims to do...

If you trust these bulbs so much...go find an exo terra spot basking bulb and look on the side...it will read something like:

"Contributes with UVB rays"

SPOT BULBS DO NOT GIVE OFF ANY UV RAYS!

It is scientifically impossible. Just because a company claims their product is great...does not mean it is.

Go buy a UV meter and test it on your bulbs...then you'll know what I'm talking about.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

There is noone in this forum that knows anything about chameleons that can say a 5.0 bulb is completely useless. If they're useless in your opinion then maybe you should rethink your opinion. It has more to do with you not wanting to spend the minimal amount of money to take the extra step to ensure the quality of life for a chameleon. It's a scientific fact that they are beneficial for chameleons whether or not you like it and if you can't afford to make sure your chameleon is set up properly, don't own a chameleon. The whole point of the D3 in the supplements is to make up for a lack of UVB in an indoor environment, which is exactly what the bulb is doing only more naturally than supplements would do it. I don't know anything about your experience, but from the questions I often see you asking, I think you had better go with an opinion of basically anyone else but yourself. I'm am in no way saying to use or not to use MV bulbs, but from research and other people's experience, in the long run, a 5.0 bulb is more useful in an average setup (normal cage size). Being within a foot of a bulb is a normal thing for a chameleon unless the cage is several feet tall, and the animal doesn't need to be near the bulb all day to get the amount of UVB he/she needs. I also am not talking about Exo Terra and don't know or care what their label says on a spot bulb. We're referring to Zoo Med 5.0 Reptisun flourescent bulbs. I would also like to hear other people's opinions on this if any of you feel inclined.
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

I definetly make enough money in a week to be able to afford 5.0 bulbs for all of my animals year round...but I refuse to buy a product that is no more beneficial than placing my chameleon in front of a glass window for a few hours a day.

HERE ARE THE FACTS:

Glass filters up to 95% of UVB and UVA rays, while screen filters up to 60% of UVB and UVA rays. The bulbs you are so fond of contibute 5.0% (or less after they deteriorate) of their light to UVB rays. The other 95% is just plain old everyday light.

UVB is a group of wavelenghts that in many reptiles and other animals (birds, and certain mammals) reacts to create Vitamin D3. Vitamin D3 is essential for reptiles to be able to retain their calcium levels. Hence, if I am providing the proper levels of D3 they will be able to retain these calcium levels.

You may be asking yourself: Why doesn't everyone just use Vitamin D3 then if it's that easy???

Well, since Vitamin D3 can be very toxic in high doses...I wouldn't say it's a good idea to use it if you are the average reptile keeper. Actually D3 would be the main ingerdient in most rat poisons.

There is no doubt that UVB bulbs are the safest and best way to ensure your reptile is getting the radiation it needs...but it's too bad the bulbs are not perfected to the extent that they must be replaced every 3-6 months (in my opinion) and they are unreasonably priced. The bulbs deteriorate so fast and like I said before: "If you have a screened enclosure, and you place a 5.0 bulb on top...only 2.5% is now going to make it through...

IT IS A FACT: That these bulbs only work at their maximum percentage when they are placed 12-18 inches from the animal. Since we do not enjoy keeping our chameleons in shoe boxes we decide to give the very large homes>>>4x2x2's or 6x4x2's.

In these types of large enclosures the bulbs are nothing more than useless. The chameleons can barely get high enough to cover the 12-18" they need to use the bulb and we refuse to put the bulb in the tank because of the fact that veiled's and other chameleons are heavy, and excellent climbers. There is no doubt in my ming that a chameleon would not try to climb up on the bulb...burn itself or dislodge the bulb and have it brake...or something of the sort.

Some people lately swear by these NEW MERCURY VAPOR BULBS...in my opinion they are equally useless to the previous bulbs mention except far more dangerous. If the bulb gets wet it could explode causing a leakage of mercury...which is toxic to humans as well as your chameleon...the bulbs also produce far too much UV to be safe and should never be used as a primary heat source...

One areticle I have read was about a dead bearded dragon autopsy...they found mercury in the blood tissues of the dragon due to the POWERSUN vapor bulbs.

In the winter due to cold weather...our chameleons will continued to be supplemented with Vitamin D3 until a problem occurs. Since we've been doing it for more than a year and a half...no problems in temperment or health have occured. Currently their crickets are dusted with a Vitamin/Calcium mixture which contains 22,000 IU/kg...this mixture has caused us no problems and was developed by a local breeder who has kept and bred chameleons for over twenty years.

In his early days there were no UV bulbs so all he had was natural sunlight and supplements. May I mention he also has his Masters in Herpetology?

I myself am currently finishing my 4th year of univeristy Biology and next year I will start my first Herpetology course.

I definetly DO NOT consider myself an expert...I am simply a 4th year univerity student who enjoys keeping and breeding reptiles as a hobby and selling them to make a small profit. I read many books and articles on the species I keep and I come here to recieve other peoples opinions.

Your opinion is obviously that UV bulbs are the best thing since sliced bread...my opinion is slightly different.

I am only looking for an answer to how much of a dosage others are using who supplement with D3.

If I sound uneducated, or offensive at times it is only because I don't like to take the time to explain myself to the full extent...which is what I have tried to do with this post...usually I keep thing short, to the point...things are easier that way.

If anyone has any comments or suggestions with supplementation, how I keep my chameleons or anything elss...feel free to post another message or e-mail me...

Here are our chameleon cages that have just been built...I'm also no expert with construction...but they work...the only change that has been made with these cages...is recently we placed a 48" light fixture and put in two 48" bright light flouescents.

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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

I'm not about to go through all you've written and correct everything, but here's a few things.
-5.0 bulbs definately do not need to be replaced every 3-6 months. I don't know who told you that but they're good for at least 9.
-I don't have a UV meter but I find it hard to believe that screen elimintaes 60% of the UVB.
-You say D3 is not to be used by the average reptile keeper but you're here asking us how much to give the chameleons.
-In a normal cage (2x2x4 or whatever) a chameleon spends a great deal of time within range of the bulb and in the amount of time they're there they recieve more than enough UBV.
-Just because 1 or 2 breeders have raised veileds without using UVB doesn't mean it's not beneficial to the chameleons.
-We're still not talking about MV bulbs
-Do all the research and get all the degrees you want, but when it's all said and done, EVERY major breeder/keeper of chameleons uses UVB bulbs (whether florescent or MV) on their animals. They are the people that have learned the hard way. Just because you've made it work without providing the chameleons with what they need doesn't mean it's right.
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

The bulbs may not need to be replaced until 9 months but they are still not working to their full potential the minute after you turn them on. If you test the bulbs with a meter...major deterioration starts around 4 months.

If you do not believe the fact about screen...go and pick up the newest REPTILES magazine...(Jan issue) it has an article devoted to lighting written by the President and CEO that owns the company that makes your favorites bulbs! (Zoo Med president-Gary Bagnall.

I'm not asking how much D3 to give chameleons...I'm asking how much others give their chameleons...so I can see what a common dosage is compared to our formula mixed by a true professional who actually has a degree rather than an opinion generated by what the "word on the street" is.

Even if a chameleon is spending time in the range of the UV bulb the bulb is still not working at full potential because of the screen in front of it.

There is no doubt that UVB is beneficial to chameleons...but it is not necessary. Why would you spend money on a paddle for your boat when you already have a motor?

to end this post; I'd say that since I have successfully kept chameleons without the use of UV bulbs...instead using sunlight in the summer and D3 supplement through winter...I will not be changing my methods until a problem occurs. Because there has been no change in temperment or health...I'm going to say that my chameleons are just as healthy as they were more than a year ago with the use of bulbs.

Also...why does it make it wrong to keep chameleons or any reptile this way??? Is it not natural??? If this is the case then keeping any animal is not natural in the first place.

Is it hurting the chameleon??? So far if no signs of stress or bad health can be detected, I would say the chameleons are just fine.

Will the chameleons live shorter lives?? The breeder who mixes this supplement had a vieled chameleon survive just over 9 years. Another survived almost 8 years.

So until someone can come up with a logical, educated, and evident reason of why it is wrong to keep chameleons this way...then I'll keep on doing what I'm doing.

Of course...all of this is my educated opinion; you may have your own.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

immitate what most people say when they try to do what I'm doing.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.5.1 Leopard Geckos

Geez! You wonder why noone responds to your posts! Obviously you're not going to stop until someone tells you you're right, so here it is:

YOU'RE RIGHT!!!!

Hope the veileds live a long and happy life with no UVB and with an owner that likes to do the bare minimum to keep his animals alive until a problem arises. With your "educated" opinion you should do fine. Don't worry though, I'm sure the forum will still be here when you need help again.
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Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV
www.BLUEBEASTREPTILE.com

n/p

Sorry to get you all worked up...if you look back...I was never looking for an opinion of whether or not I should be using UV lights. I was looking for someone else who only supplements their chameleons. Previously there we a few people who did this and had great success. I was looking for the dose amounts they give their chameleons, not your personal opinion whether or not UV lights are benificial.

I do recall you posting to say that I was cheap? And that I should buy the lights...you say I do the bare minimum, I say I'm taking the steps to provide my chameleons with better care than others provide with bulbs...it's all an opinion and everyone has a different one.

Why did nobody reply to this post???
Well, I think most people are probably like yourself, they see new packaging on a product that claims to be beneficial to reptiles and they go out and blow their money on it. Because I have so many animals as well as eggs, babies and juviniles...we do not spend money unesscessarily. If a chameleon is going to live and thrive the same way without a bulb...then without the bulb it is.

I don't need you to agree with me...there are many others who already do. So you can stick to your views and I'll be over here with mine. I hope your chameleons live happy lives as well, under an owner who is takes more steps than needed to provide them with uv lighting.

Here a picture of one of our baby bearded dragons. He was hatched under parents who recieved no UVB and raised with no UVB. He is currently 350 grams and still growing. Both the parents and the babies only recieved supplements. The hatch rate was better this year than previous years when we used UV bulbs instead of supplements.

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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

To be completely honest, I got sick of reading your excuses and have no intention on reading the rest of your posts. The "final scoop" is that scientific studies on productivity of chameleons with relation to artificial UV exposure have been conducted and prove you are wrong. If you had done all the research you've claimed, you'd know this. You might find the study interesting: Ferguson, G.W., Gehrmann, W.H., Chen, T.C., Dierenfeld, E.S. and Holick, M.F. 2002. Effects of Artificial Ultraviolet Light Exposure on Reproductive Success of the Female Panther Chameleon (Furcifer pardalis) in Captivity. Zoo Biology 21:525-537.
It applies dirrectly to your claims and refutes them. All you are telling everyone is that you are a self proclaimed expert on the topic trying to make money off breeding your chameleons and don't want to listen to anyone because you're a fourth year college student about to take a herpetology class so you feel like you know more than people. Guess what, you aren't the only one here who has studied this stuff and I promise you, many, including myself, have probably taken many more classes relating to this topic than you have. One in your situation might want to consider getting their money back and going to a better school cause they obviously haven't benefited much from the one they are in.

On screen filtering out 60% of the rays:
The above mentioned study was done in screen enclosures with various bulbs, including the reptisun 5.0 and they still show you're info to be wrong. Different sized wire mesh will filter different amounts of the rays. If isn't generally recommended to use fine screen because the claws of the chameleon can get caught and torn out so if you use larger mesh like is recommended, a lower percentage of the rays will be filtered out.

On the lack of UV rays from bulbs:
I have the results from reptisun 5.0 and powersun bulbs on my other computer and let me tell you, they do radiate UV rays. Maybe the exotera bulb or whatever it was is differnt.

On the distance from bulb to animal:
There are ways to place the bulbs so this isn't a problem. Many people place them vertically on the back or side of the cage and have a basking bulb at the top. This greatly increases the amount of places where they can be within the range of the bulbs. Additionally however, prolonged exposure to higher levels of UV rays have negative effects (see Ferguson, et al)so it is a good thing if the whole cage isn't in range of the bulb. This is why I don't recommend MV bulbs to anyone expect with the largest of cages and even then, only under special circumstances.

I'm sure I missed something but the bottom line is, the information you are claiming as fact, while true, when put into correct context, does not conclude that the UV bulbs are worthless. Please do not bother trying to refute anything I've said until you've read the applicable scientific studies (done by people with PhDs and DVMs in herpetology, nutrition and veternary medicine).

Regards,

Chris
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Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

My comment on getting your money back was uncalled for. My appologies, i didn't reread my post before I hit enter.

Chris

>>To be completely honest, I got sick of reading your excuses and have no intention on reading the rest of your posts. The "final scoop" is that scientific studies on productivity of chameleons with relation to artificial UV exposure have been conducted and prove you are wrong. If you had done all the research you've claimed, you'd know this. You might find the study interesting: Ferguson, G.W., Gehrmann, W.H., Chen, T.C., Dierenfeld, E.S. and Holick, M.F. 2002. Effects of Artificial Ultraviolet Light Exposure on Reproductive Success of the Female Panther Chameleon (Furcifer pardalis) in Captivity. Zoo Biology 21:525-537.
>>It applies dirrectly to your claims and refutes them. All you are telling everyone is that you are a self proclaimed expert on the topic trying to make money off breeding your chameleons and don't want to listen to anyone because you're a fourth year college student about to take a herpetology class so you feel like you know more than people. Guess what, you aren't the only one here who has studied this stuff and I promise you, many, including myself, have probably taken many more classes relating to this topic than you have. One in your situation might want to consider getting their money back and going to a better school cause they obviously haven't benefited much from the one they are in.
>>
>>On screen filtering out 60% of the rays:
>>The above mentioned study was done in screen enclosures with various bulbs, including the reptisun 5.0 and they still show you're info to be wrong. Different sized wire mesh will filter different amounts of the rays. If isn't generally recommended to use fine screen because the claws of the chameleon can get caught and torn out so if you use larger mesh like is recommended, a lower percentage of the rays will be filtered out.
>>
>>On the lack of UV rays from bulbs:
>>I have the results from reptisun 5.0 and powersun bulbs on my other computer and let me tell you, they do radiate UV rays. Maybe the exotera bulb or whatever it was is differnt.
>>
>>On the distance from bulb to animal:
>>There are ways to place the bulbs so this isn't a problem. Many people place them vertically on the back or side of the cage and have a basking bulb at the top. This greatly increases the amount of places where they can be within the range of the bulbs. Additionally however, prolonged exposure to higher levels of UV rays have negative effects (see Ferguson, et al)so it is a good thing if the whole cage isn't in range of the bulb. This is why I don't recommend MV bulbs to anyone expect with the largest of cages and even then, only under special circumstances.
>>
>>I'm sure I missed something but the bottom line is, the information you are claiming as fact, while true, when put into correct context, does not conclude that the UV bulbs are worthless. Please do not bother trying to refute anything I've said until you've read the applicable scientific studies (done by people with PhDs and DVMs in herpetology, nutrition and veternary medicine).
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Chris
>>-----
>>Chris Anderson
>>parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
>>Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
>>Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/
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Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

found your article, and e-mailed the professor who did the study. We'll see what his opinion is.

Opinions are fun aren't they?

They get people all excited...
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

Cricket

not to get picky, but didn't you just post a question about color change?

....No changes in colour either...as we use the much cheaper plant bulbs to create sufficient light for the chameleons in addition to a heat bulb.
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 green anoles Jaida & Jetta
0.1 brown anole - Jamaica
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

Here. i say we all donate 25 cents to CV. Because i dont buy this BS about him having enough money. It's fine if your Chams die(they will definately be in a better place ..then this crap your putting them through). Redardless of money or even what you think..Chams need uvb bulbs for their cages. Its as simple as that. And dont be coming back to us asking questions when they get MBD.

Excuse me for my language...But i dont want a cham to be suffering... Thanks

I would gladly take the 25 cents, I'd put it towards more supplementation. I would think somehow if the supplement wasn't do it's job that after 1.5 years that my chameleons would be dead already. I could give you my salary figures but it would be in Canadian dollars and I don't know if you'd be smart enough to convert it to your currency, so there's no point.

With all of the animals we have, we definetly have enough money for bulbs but if we find something that works just as well, if not better...we're going to use it and stick with it. Especially after going on two years of success. You can have your opinion and I'll have mine. I'd rather take all the bulb money that I'm saving using supplement and focas on other areas...cage sizes...better quality food...proper cleanliness...and quality time with the animals.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

Maybe I should continue to simply keep out of this...
Your original post was an inquiry about how much supplementation others are using when not using UVB bulbs. At this point you didn't really state that UV bulbs are useless.
For the most part of your posts, you didn't say that UVB bulbs ARE useless. You questioned their importance. Upon further debate, you stated your own supplementation methods. Beligerantly, maybe. Enough so to get others up in arms. But I suspect that this was your intention from the very beginning.
You have stated in other posts that you like to make people think, while others have accused you of being a troll. I believe the REAL intent of your post is the same as the intent of your other posts: to create controversy.
I like to read your posts. Not because they make me think. What they do succeed in is showing is the professional and courteous manner (for the most part) in which other, more qualified and experienced members of this forum patiently answer your obvious attempts at creating controversy.
I did not mean this as a personal attack on anyone, nor against any person's 'opinion'. Like I stated, maybe I should continue to simply keep out of this...
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

Actually it isn't about controversy...it's about finding a new and better way to do things...I'm currently in correspondance with Dr. Gary Ferguson...author of many books and articles related to the keeping and breeding of chameleons...I think he probably has the experiance and the knowledge to judge whether or not what we are doing is safe for our animals.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors

D

Yup, color does change...because without the UV bulbs in the tank there isn't enough light for them. So instead we use either plant bulbs or regular flourescents to boost the light intensity. When we use a Footcandle meter, it shows more intensity of light under the flourescents than the UVB lights...

With the extra light from normal flourescents or plant bulbs...the colour problem goes away.
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.3.0 Bearded Dragons
1.2.0 Green Basilisks
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
1.1.0 Corn Snakes
1.0.0 Tokay Geckos
0.0.1 California Kingsnakes
2.7.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Savannah Monitors