Reptile & Amphibian Forums

DFR asked WHY so many people are against the forum. Rearfang answered that he is against it because he is against the whole idea of venomoids. Fair enough. Then the discussion breaks down into the pros and cons of venomoids, rather than discussing the original question of why so many are against a forum.

What I fail to see is how blocking a forum for the discussion of the issue will help anyone. Those opposed to the practice should (I would think) welcome such a forum so as to have a place to express their opinion to those looking to learn more about it. You can post pictures and show studies and explain why it is such a horrifying thing to do. Educate me! Because I never really gave it much thought one way or another...but if I had a place like that to go, I could get both sides of the issue and make a more informed decision about the issue.

And trust me...I and many others like me, are coming to KS every day to learn more and more about every aspect of snake keeping. Your opinions on such a forum would not go unnoticed or unheeded.

Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

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Ireally can only speak for myself and have stated my reasons. When I have read other posts in this and the VENOMOUS thread. the others that were opposed stated similar reasons.

I have rewrote the same thing so many times I have answered the questions put to me. Please read the threads and I think you will find your answer.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I went back and read more (but not yet all) of the discussion on the venomous forum. You're certainly right that you shouldn't have to re-write your arguments all over again every time someone new jumps into the discussion and I'm not going to ask you to.

You make valid points. And I completely understand your vehemence against altering snakes this way. I wouldn't dream of trying to convince you otherwise. And I admire your ability to continue to make your point without resorting to emotional antics or name calling.

I just happen to disagree with your assessment that the creation of the forum equates to condoning or "legitimizing" the practice. I see it as an opportunity for those who do (and will always so far as we know) keep venomoids to come together and compare notes on caring for them and such, as we do on all the other forums. And I also see it as an opportunity for anyone interested in learning more about it to do so. And most of all, I see it as an opportunity for folks like you who feel so passionately about the issue to use as a platform to teach people like me why it is such a bad idea.

But I can still see your point of view. Maybe such a forum would be so repugnant to you that you wouldn't even visit it to see who might be visiting and teachable. But that would be a loss for anyone truly interested in learning all the points of view on this difficult topic.

I wish you well...
Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

To disagee... I think that if there is anything I can contribute, I can do it here, rather than encourage a forum dedicated to something I think is wrong.
Take care, Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

you are no better than the peta people who would like to stop you from your hobby. A peta person hates all those who have pets and consider it abuse as you consider removing poisen sacs abuse. You want the right to have a forum to talk about what you love but want to take that right away from us. Why make a horse a gelding other than to make them more ridable? The pound is not full of horses. so your argument that altering animals for our enjoyment is one you have been losing for centuries then. I am not trying to say your opinion is wrong but to say that I deserve no place here for me and my snakes is just out and out biggotry. by all means love and care for your snakes as I do mine but don't think you are any better than me! we all took wild animals out of their habitat and keep them in cages if you want to know how we feel go talk to a peta member and tell them about your snakes so you have to defend yourself.

With all respects to your rights...Please look up the word ABUSE. To call me a Bigot and anything like a "PETA" person is a revelation that you obviously are not familiar with what I write on these posts. Please read mine and the other anti-forum posts. It is not Bigotry to oppose something that we beleave is wrong. That is my conviction based on my over thirty years in and out of the pet trade and hobby and my sense of morality-which is being strained at this moment, when someone insults me like you have. If you want to make a point, that is not how to do it. Prove to me that making a snake a venomoid improves the snake's condition and you may make some degree of sense. No one else has risen to that challenge.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

First why do I need to prove to you anything? All I want is a place to talk wich you "like peta" Feel I should not have. I am by no means tealling you to make them, buy them, love them. Where as like peta you think I should not be able to talk about it here or own one that is my point just as you feel no need to justify yourself to peta I feel no need to justify myself to you. All I ask is for the same right you enjoy that you feel I have no right too. You never did say if you thought gelding a horse was okay and why there is no use or purpose other than to control it better! Just like a venomoid!

If you had read my postings you would have found that the only form of altering I favor is neutering and that is for reasons I supplied graphicaly on the VENOMOUS forum. So if you please....read it there. Or, I can make it simple. Some people do not have the brains or desire to stop indiscriminate breeding of their pets. This results in many forms of abuse. You can read about if you take the time to look over there at Venomous. As taphillip pointed out, I keep having to repeat the same thing each time someone new gets on this subject. I have stated my case. If you do not agree, that is your right. But (one more time) to advocate a venomoid forum is to violate my own personal choice. My own morality. To lump me with PETA who would take your rights is just wrong.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

you do not have to advocate it but don't block it that is what I am saying that is what peta would do hence I say you are like peta. If you take that as name calling im sorry but that is how you are acting it is your way or you will try to stop it just as they do. Do you understand? Or do I have to put it even plainer if possible? I asked about gelding a horse I have read you post maybe I missed 1 where you talked about a horse not a dog or cat but a horse where gelding is not needed as most people keep there horses seperated. I have read your post numerous times thank you I do listen I don't agree but I support your right to talk about it and to have your own forum for your snakes it's just sad you will not afford me the same right. You do not have to go to the forum or be involed or even like it but to block it is somthing diffrent.

Guess you havent handled many staliions, have you? Many should have been castrated, but silly "backyard breeders" keep them intact to try to make a few bucks. Stallions can be a danger to other horses, their handlers, and even themselves, as they will go to any length to get to a cycling female. It doesnt even take a female nearby to send them bonkers. Some are agressive 24/7.

Nuetering a horse is a completely different thing than mutilating a snake. Just because someone has an opinion, doesnt mean they should get a voice.

Thanks for the enlightening post on horses. Since horses would be extinct most likely if it was not for domestication (early humans wiped them out in the Americas), to keep the species alive we must excersize controls. Since a venomous snake does not rquire as extensive control, the samr logicdoes not apply. (Great now my mouse is malfuncioning)sory about the typos, cant go back to fix them.

I have to disagee though. Opinions should be heard. But special recognition by creating a forum here should not.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

so you are saying to keep a stallion you must nueter it like if I want a cobra that wont kill me I make it a venomoid you just proved my point eventhough you wont admit it.

What is it with these nit-pick arguements? Use your head. A horse weighing several hundred pounds cannot be housed like a snake and can injure it'self and others if it goes berserk. Show me a venomous snake that can smash it's way out of a barn stall and you might have a point. Can't you come up with something more realistic to justify your stand?

You might want to check out my post on VENOMOUS forum on Civics. It will explain to you what Your first Ammendment rights are on a commercial forum (which this is).

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

The point is you don't need to own a male horse there is no need to own a male horse other than to own one. we don't ride them to the store we don't plow our feilds with them and they are not going extinct! So the same situation would apply would it not?

oh yeah and notice I did awnser your question in the other forum so don't say no one has awsered you question. You may not like the awnser but honestly I don't really care. That may sound mean but I don't care what peta says either not calling you peta this time just that I don't care what other people think.

I read it and excuse me it made no sense. What were you trying to say?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I do respect what other's have to say....Which is why I answer your posts. You might want to rethink what you just said....
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Actually no. The safety issues are different (as I said) because the sheer size and power of the animal can make it a threat. Obviously, you cannot house a horse in a 55gl aquarium, but you can most venomous snakes.

You are right that the horse is no longer a necessity in most of the civilized world. But history shows us that the horse, cow, and several other "domestic animals" would have been killed off for food if man had not domesticated them (the horse as I said, was wiped out and then re-introduced in America). Which means now that the only real protection they have now is as pets. It is a very different control issue and criteria.

The world is not all Black and White. There are side issues and differences. That is why this kind of (comparison) arguement does not work.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Are you going to just euthanize every male horse that is good enough to breed? Of course not. Thats where castration comes in.

Personally I think I have said where I have stood on the venomoid issue, answered too many repeditive questions, as well as fielding the most unrelated rationalizations in defence of the practice. I turn the game over to someone else.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

That it would be the most boring forum in the world? Talk about a one trick pony! I've already read this argument 500 times, there's nothing else that can be said!
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

Boy am I with you on that!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

And it's worth having the forum so I never have to look at the arguement ever again. Let others fight the fights. I guess sweeping the issue under the carpet isn't a good way to deal with it no matter which side you're on.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch